# Only 45% of American's believe in Evolution, 33% in the Big Bang **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662 "2010-04-10T19:44:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/81 "2010-04-14T18:00:06Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I’d hope you wouldn’t take their word so soon, as any answer given is wrong. New Guinea is an island, not a country, and thus has no capital. The eastern part is Papua New Guinea which does have a capital, as well as the Indonesian provinces of Papua and West Papua. I don’t care! My intuition was that New Guinea was a country, and I’m not listening to you “experts” with your “maps”, I think we should teach that New Guinea is a country in our geography classes. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/82 "2010-04-14T18:24:20Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > But I do have evidence, I have evidence that _science works_. Science has a proven track record, religion does not. Accepting something backed by science is a much different thing than accepting something backed by religion. > First, they have much more to go on than other people’s words. And second, as I said before, who’s words they take matter. People who simply take the word of a priest on the matter of evolution are at the very least lazy. If they wanted to, they could go get more information on the subject, and from real sources. Instead, they choose to place faith in something that is obviously not a reliable source, and end their inquiry there. They are ignorant and not only happy about it, but insistent that they are right and further inquiry is not required. But what if the priest tells you that scientists agree with him? That there’s a debate? What if there are a bunch of science-looking websites and books that support creationism? _Then_ is their ignorance excusable? What if I compound that confusion with the fact that for most people, the truth about evolution is about as important as the capital of New Guinea? On one hand, I’ve got a teacher telling me that the Great Barrier Reef is shrinking. How do we know that? Because scientists say so. On the other hand, my uncle tells me that the earth is 4000 years old and that dinosaurs had saddles. How do we know that? Because scientists dug up [dinosaur footprints alongside human ones](http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks.htm). In both cases, I’ve got someone I trust telling me that scientists believe in X. And in both cases, it’s not terribly important if they’re right (because, hey, I’m just a farmer!). So it’s not shocking if I buy into X, is it? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/83 "2010-04-14T19:12:35Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > But what if the priest tells you that scientists agree with him? Then he’s bypassing his own authority, and deferring to science. Go look at the science. > [@](#): > > What if there are a bunch of science-looking websites and books that support creationism? If you actually cared about the truth you’d find out if they were real science. A simple look at the sites and their content should demonstrate that they obviously aren’t. Someone who doesn’t actually care about the truth is perfectly happy to rely on priests & ministers & rabbis & imams & kannushis & gurus for answers on evolution. > [@](#): > > _Then_ is their ignorance excusable? Their ignorance is willful, and is based on the obviously flawed idea that a religious leader is a better expert on evolution than an evolutionary biologist. It is not excusable. > [@](#): > > What if I compound that confusion with the fact that for most people, the truth about evolution is about as important as the capital of New Guinea? This would be fine, if evolution wasn’t such a controversial topic. People who try to get laws passed to force the teaching of creationism because they don’t belive in evolution, etc, clearly care more about the subject than about the capital of New Guinea. > [@](#): > > In both cases, I’ve got someone I trust telling me that scientists believe in X. And in both cases, it’s not terribly important if they’re right (because, hey, I’m just a farmer!). So it’s not shocking if I buy into X, is it? Why do you trust the second source as much as you trust the first? Does the second source have the same track record as the first? Or do they base their assertions on belief rather than fact? The only shocking thing here is that you would think that someone who’s basing their knowledge of science on a 2000+ year old book written by desert nomads more than on the findings of 1000s of scientists working today. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/84 "2010-04-14T20:14:16Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > But what if the priest tells you that scientists agree with him? That there’s a debate? What if there are a bunch of science-looking websites and books that support creationism? _Then_ is their ignorance excusable? What if I compound that confusion with the fact that for most people, the truth about evolution is about as important as the capital of New Guinea? Would the guy who believes what the priest says about science and the creationist websites also believe some web page saying Jesus was an alien, or that there was proof that he never got crucified and the whole thing was a hoax? He probably wouldn’t, because he knows that priests aren’t pulled off the streets and put into pulpits, but have had training in theology and have been certified. If he used the same criteria for accepting science, he might be in good shape. It is no accident that the guy who started the modern creationist movement had nothing to do with biology. As has already been mentioned, science has the advantage of predictive power, something lacking in religion. (When is Jesus coming back again?) You can look up the predictions, like for CBR, published before it was found. Ditto for inflation. For evolution, we predict what fossils we can expect to find, and we find them. We also can predict how our DNA should match that of other animals, and that came through also. Most people need popularizers to translate the actual papers into things they can understand - but most people can’t read Latin, Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic either. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/85 "2010-04-14T20:17:59Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > Well I must admit that growing up (and still living) in the Boston area may have kept me far removed from the creationist movement. Plus, when I was young, John Kennedy was President and you never heard him spouting that creationist crap. You didn’t hear Ike or Nixon spouting it either. I have some DVDs with old ads, and some of them were Eisenhower campaign ads from 1956, with average everyday people saying why they liked Ike. A few said how important god was, but none were anywhere close to being fundamentalists or anti-science. (Pre-Sputnik, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/86 "2010-04-14T20:21:30Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > In 1925, there was a large creationist movement, as evidenced by the Scopes trial. What do you think are the odds that this disappeared by 1957, and then suddenly came back in modern days. > > I think what you’re thinking of is the [National Defense Education Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Education_Act), which encouraged evolution teaching. Note that this does not imply that people were any more accepting of evolution, only that the government thought it prudent to teach. Creationism was limited to a few backwaters, mostly laughed at. You think Hollywood would have been brave enough to film Inherit the Wind as a major production if there was a wide creationist movement? That plumber Morris started it up again long after 1957 - when I was growing up in the '50s and '60s it was not an issue in most of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/87 "2010-04-14T20:29:18Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I know a thing or two about radio astronomy and am very proud of a research paper I wrote on space-based VLBI, actually. There are plenty of books around to make this accessible to any reasonably intelligent person. I’ve read a bunch, and anyone doubting their accuracy can look up reviews by people with proven expertise in the area. My only direct involvement was that I designed some circuitry for a very ground based VLBI for my bachelor’s thesis (and probably held the field back) and I’ve given some talks to Penzias, who isn’t nearly as smart as you’d think. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/88 "2010-04-14T21:35:38Z")
Why exactly should I “believe in” the Big Bang? It’s a speculative cosmology extrapolation! Does favoring an oscillating or steady-state paradigm make me stupid? I’m offended here! ---
**Author:** ![mrklutz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@mrklutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrklutz)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/89 "2010-04-15T15:21:59Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > …what they’re seeing is actually the result of fairies being rammed together at high speed, spreading fairy dust everywhere. This image made me cackle maniacally. Now I want to build a high-speed fairy collider. _Eee! Ow! Faith and begorra!_ (Sorry for the hijack – just had to share.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/90 "2010-04-16T13:34:58Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > OK, fine. I assumed too much. Pick anything about oceanography then. Done! > [@](#): > > The point is that it’s very unsurprising that people that have not studied a subject will just believe what people tell them about it. Sure, not just any old person off the street, but if your friends, family, clergy, and community all tell you that Goddidit, then it’s not surprising that you’d believe it. > > I’m saying that the rebuttal “But they don’t have any evidence” isn’t a valid counterpoint. Because you, too, accept truths without any real evidence. You just take people’s word for it. No, it’s more than just someone’s word. The faith I have that my chair will hold me up is one grounded in a lot more than the faith some other guy has in the supernatural being of his choice. Faith based on something (long-established, shared experiences of chairs holding people up around the world) is not the same as faith based on nothing but stories about outlandish supernatural events. > [@](#): > > So sitting here wide-eyed going “What were they thinking?! How dumb can they be?” isn’t a fair appraisal of the situation. It’s very understandable how someone could not believe in evolution when all they’ve got to go on is other people’s words. Not in the western world in the 21st century it isn’t. Not to me. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/91 "2010-04-16T14:23:54Z")
> [@mrklutz](#): > > This image made me cackle maniacally. Now I want to build a high-speed fairy collider. _Eee! Ow! Faith and begorra!_ “Faith and begorra”? You appear to be colliding a specific subset of faerions: the lepretons. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/92 "2010-04-16T14:35:04Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Not in the western world in the 21st century it isn’t. Not to me. Not in the 20th either. People who don’t think evolution is real are stupid. No excuses. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/93 "2010-04-16T19:28:00Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I’m going to have to answer that one the “wrong” way as well. It’s all relative motion. We go aroung the sun, the sun goes around us, the galaxy goes around that… Do you seriously think anyone who would answer that the Sun orbits the Earth knows what the hell an inertial frame is? Besides, you have to pick one. I can throw one of those hyper bouncy rubber balls around in a room and either say the ball is bouncing around or say the ball is static and the entire universe is rapidly shifting from side to side. It’s just way, way easier to model the Earth orbiting the sun. The center of gravity of the Earth-Sun system is inside the Sun, and the abberation of light and parallax back in the 1700s nailed it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/94 "2010-04-16T20:14:00Z")
> [@mrklutz](#): > > This image made me cackle maniacally. Now I want to build a high-speed fairy collider. _Eee! Ow! Faith and begorra!_ After my kids watched Peter Pan for the 20th time slamming Tinkerbelle into a cinder block wall at relativistic velocities would have been pretty cool. ---
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/95 "2010-04-16T22:32:35Z")
Religion doesn’t necessarily have to be anti-scientific, but many religions do end up that way. It’s true that Europe is generally less religious than the US, but it’s also differently religious. For a lot of people who self-identify as christian here, it might mean something completely different from what people in a different culture take it to mean. Someone might consider himself a christian, if he goes to church once a year on christmas eve to listen to christmas songs, gets his children baptized, gets married by a priest, and buried on a church cemetary. But if you ask them if they believe that Jesus died for mankinds sins, they’ll say no. They might not even believe in God, but say that they are spiritual or believe in some general force. This has a certain distorting effect on statistics when reporting religiousity. In that way being a christian for a large part of the population is more about the culture than the beliefs. Not that there aren’t plenty of real believers here too. However, being very open with your personal religious beliefs to strangers is considered to be somewhat rude. I don’t have a lot of personal experience with the US, but I understand the situation is different there. You also seem to be much more open to displays of patriotism. For example using the Finnish flag outside official circumstances or sport events is considered a sign of right wing extremism. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/96 "2010-04-17T21:18:19Z")
To add to the asshattery of this whole thing, I was just listening to a podcast yesterday that mentioned that this section was actually stricken from the official NSF report (as part of a more general report on american education and attitude towards science). We’re only seeing this data because it was leaked. Apparently they went super chicken shit and wanted to avoid offending retards by publishing this or something. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662/97 "2010-04-18T03:25:57Z")
> [@mrklutz](#): > > This image made me cackle maniacally. Now I want to build a high-speed fairy collider. _Eee! Ow! Faith and begorra!_ > > (Sorry for the hijack – just had to share.) > [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > “Faith and begorra”? You appear to be colliding a specific subset of faerions: the lepretons. This exchange made me giggle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-45-of-americans-believe-in-evolution-33-in-the-big-bang/535662.md?page=4)