# Only in Canada: Docs demand less pay **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 9, 2018, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274 "2018-03-09T03:15:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MonkeyCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@MonkeyCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyCat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/21 "2018-03-11T19:46:11Z")
Yay for the human race. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/22 "2018-03-12T15:11:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Kudos to the doctor’s who don’t want the raise. They can buy more doctors, nurses and diagnostic equipment with the savings. A truly admirable gesture. > > And for those Canadians who left the country last year because they got sick of waiting… you’re always welcome here. Apparently, that number is actually pretty small. > **[Trump’s claim about Canadians traveling to the United States for medical care](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/10/11/trumps-claim-about-canadians-traveling-to-the-united-states-for-medical-care/?utm_term=.0cf63ab61869)** > > Trump exaggerates one data point to extrapolate a larger trend, but that's misleading. The statement: " During the health-care policy portion of the debate, Trump attacked Hillary Clinton’s health-care plan and said it would end up in a “disaster, somewhat similar to Canada.” He called the Canadian health-care system “catastrophic,” and said that in “many cases,” Canadians are coming to the United States to receive operations because their system is so slow. We checked out whether this was accurate." The rating: three Pinnochios (out of four, with four being 'completely untrue" ). It is, in other words, mostly false - some Canadians do travel, but not nearly as many as are claimed. It isn’t widespread. "Three Pinocchios pinocchio\_3 Significant factual error and/or obvious contradictions. This gets into the realm of “mostly false.” But it could include statements which are technically correct (such as based on official government data) but are so taken out of context as to be very misleading. The line between Two and Three can be bit fuzzy and we do not award half-Pinocchios. So we strive to explain the factors that tipped us toward a Three." The article goes into the “why”. In short, while it tends to be a big talking point in healthcare, the actual numbers (insofar as they are actually known) are relatively small. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/23 "2018-03-12T17:44:32Z")
Plus, there’s the number of Americans who travel abroad to get health care as summarised in this Mother Jones article from a couple of years ago: > [@](#): > > Overall, then, that’s about 0.13 per cent of Canadians and about 0.08 per cent of Americans who flee their country for health care. Those are pretty similar numbers. The only real difference is the reason for leaving. Canadians mostly cite wait times for elective surgery. Americans mostly cite the high cost of medical treatment. > > So you see, every kind of health care system has its own problems. Canada’s is bad for rich people who can afford to pay top dollar to get faster service. America’s is bad for poor people, who would go bankrupt if they paid American prices. Check your moral compass and take your pick. > **[Americans flee America for overseas health care just like Canadians](https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/americans-flee-america-overseas-health-care-just-canadians/)** > >   ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/24 "2018-03-12T17:56:49Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Apparently, that number is actually pretty small. “The campaign pointed out that 52,513 people in 2014 represented a 25.5 percent increase over the 2013 estimate of 41,838 people. For context, 52,513 people represent 0.15 percent of the country’s population of 35.5 million in 201” Meanwhile “an estimated 1.4 million Americans will leave the country for a medical procedure, according to Patients Beyond Borders.” > **[1.4 Million Americans Will Go Abroad for Medical Care This Year. Should You?](https://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/08/17/14-Million-Americans-Will-Go-Abroad-Medical-Care-Year-Should-You)** > > Health care has become so expensive in the United States that a growing number of Americans (and their employers) a But you can be pretty certain that Magiver’s going to clutch at any straw he can to criticize the Canadian system, while ignoring any comparable figure that show the US is doing much worse. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/25 "2018-03-12T23:28:02Z")
Canadian doctors work hard and are remunerated well. In Quebec, doctors used to be paid less than many other provinces. Specialists were always paid much more than family doctors there (as a recent Andre Picard column describes). Many doctors have some social conscience, but most who “complained” were residents (student doctors) not yet making money commensurate with their worth. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/26 "2018-03-13T06:05:23Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > I’ve seen a UAW local be extremely cooperative with plant management on cost control. > > They did it because,\*\* like in the case you cite\*\*, the system was under genuine financial pressure… the plant to be closed and torn down for a more modern facility built elsewhere. No, the cases are different: The UAW were desperate not to lose their jobs. So they took pay cuts only because it’s in their self-interest. These Canadian doctors seem to be doing the opposite: they were willing to take pay cuts because they have a social conscience and want to help others. (Plus, they are also young interns,with a bright future of good job security and high pay guaranteed----it’s easier to be idealistic that way 🙂 ) But good for them! ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/27 "2018-03-13T13:00:09Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > … > These Canadian doctors seem to be doing the opposite: they were willing to take pay cuts because they have a social conscience and want to help others. > … YES! THIS! This is what I find so remarkable. The Canadian health system is not the point of my posting this. They might be plumbers or pilots or pea pickers. It’s that they are asking for LESS PAY because of a social conscience. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/28 "2018-03-15T20:40:26Z")
Nothing to contribute on the topic. I just had to respond to this entry by praising this evocative phrase. > [@Grey](#): > > stagger about like a drunkard escaping from a brewery –G EOM ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/29 "2018-03-15T20:56:54Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > Warren Buffett is always claiming his taxes are too low. Yet, you never see him paying extra into the system, even though he can. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/30 "2018-03-15T21:07:35Z")
Warren Buffett is always claiming that he _and other people like him_ are paying too little in taxes. He could voluntarily increase the taxes he, personally, is paying. But that won’t be enough to make a difference, without also increasing the taxes paid by Sheldon Adelson and the Koch Brothers and all the others whom you’ve never heard of. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/31 "2018-03-16T03:25:31Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Yet, you never see him paying extra into the system, even though he can. or giving it to his employees like other companies did. Heck, he donated 37 Billion to Gate’s charity in the past so it’s not like “doer of good deeds” is a new idea to him. We have a bridge we’d like to sell him in Cincinnati (seriously). Buy us one and we’ll even name it after him. The Warren Buffet Memorial Bridge. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/32 "2018-03-16T06:48:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We have a bridge we’d like to sell him in Cincinnati (seriously). Buy us one and we’ll even name it after him. The Warren Buffet Memorial Bridge. Maybe I’m weird, but I would not want the name “memorial” in anything named after me as long as I’m still alive. I cannot shake the association that this word means that you are dead. It just implies “we’re remembering you after you’ve passed” to me. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/33 "2018-03-16T12:55:43Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Maybe I’m weird, but I would not want the name “memorial” in anything named after me as long as I’m still alive. I cannot shake the association that this word means that you are dead. It just implies “we’re remembering you after you’ve passed” to me. I don’t mind. They can name it after me. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274/34 "2018-04-06T04:46:51Z")
> [@Heracles](#): > > The current minister of Health, Gaétan Barrette, is an anesthesiologist and the former head of the federation of specialist physicians. The prime minister, Philippe Couillard, is a neurosurgeon. Supposedly, they know how the system works and how it should work. That’s not necessarily true. They’re experts in their medical fields, not in the administration of hospitals and the provision of services. Those are different fields and I think it’s a mistake to assume that doctors know best how a health care system should work, any more than one would say that nurses know best how a health care system should work, or that radiologist techs know best, etc. I once heard an interview with former Premier Alan Blakeney talking about Cabinet formation after an election, and the interviewer suggested that a doctor would make a good Minister of Health. Blakeney responded by saying he would never put a doctor in the Health portfolio, because ministers aren’t supposed to be experts in the field of their ministry. They’re supposed to bring good judgment to what should be done, among the range of options that are available. He also said that as soon as there was a strike by doctors or nurses, or some sort of disagrement between doctors and other participants in the health care system, having a doctor as Minister would undermine the credibility of the government in trying to settle the dispute: is the Doctor Minister acting for the best interests of the people who are served by the health care system, or for the best interests of the doctors? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-in-canada-docs-demand-less-pay/810274.md?page=1)