# Only loggers can prevent forest fires **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 22, 2002, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110 "2002-08-22T17:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/21 "2002-08-22T21:18:09Z")
Read the column, december. An “adjusted” 1280 is still a lot lower than “over 1400.” ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/22 "2002-08-22T21:21:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > \*\* > > A fly? I suppose that’s really easy to say while sitting in “Brooklyn, USA!” but I would bet the 141 families in Colorado whose homes were destroyed by 200,000 acres of fire. Or the 8,000 people in Arizona evacuated in the face of 128,000 acre blaze. \*\* Since when are people in cities not allowed to be concerned about the environment? Not that I’ve actually ever seen a tree or anything, but I hear they’re real pretty. I will agree that if we chop down all the trees, no one will ever have to relocate because of a forest fire. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/23 "2002-08-22T21:26:41Z")
Some random percentages from random sites: [http://www.beworldwise.org/ocean\_realms\_u1\_L1.htm](http://www.beworldwise.org/ocean_realms_u1_L1.htm) > [@](#): > > Algae also produces most of the earth’s oxygen. Collectively, algae are responsible for 80% of the world’s food supply and 75% of its oxygen production [http://outreach.ecology.uga.edu/watershed/oxygen.html](http://outreach.ecology.uga.edu/watershed/oxygen.html) > [@](#): > > It is estimated that algae produce about 30 to 50 percent of the net (difference between production and use) global oxygen [http://www.seriousprofits.net/BGAlgae/Lake.html](http://www.seriousprofits.net/BGAlgae/Lake.html) > [@](#): > > **90** percent of what we breathe [http://www.ecology.com/dr-jacks-natural-world/most-important-organism/](http://www.ecology.com/dr-jacks-natural-world/most-important-organism/) > [@](#): > > It is estimated that between 70% and 80% of the oxygen in the atmosphere is produced by marine plants . So no one can agree on numbers. And here is a site explaining how too much algae is bad for ponds: [http://www.clarkfork.org/growth.html](http://www.clarkfork.org/growth.html) > [@](#): > > Algae produces oxygen during the day, but at night, without photosynthesis, the algae takes oxygen from the river, robbing fish and other aquatic organisms of oxygen. In short, algae chokes waterways ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/24 "2002-08-22T21:31:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Read the column, december. An “adjusted” 1280 is still a lot lower than “over 1400.” \*\* Sure. The point is, Bush’s SATs would make him pretty smart. As Cecil says, “…88th percentile on the verbal and 86th in math were he entering college now.” ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/25 "2002-08-22T23:43:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\* > > Since when are people in cities not allowed to be concerned about the environment? Not that I’ve actually ever seen a tree or anything, but I hear they’re real pretty. I will agree that if we chop down all the trees, no one will ever have to relocate because of a forest fire. \*\* Oh, they’re allowed to be concerned, but it’s really easy to be dismissive about the very real concern over forest fires when one is sitting in one of the five boroughs of the largest city in the United States. When one’s home is about to be destroyed by a raging wildfire, which has spread so far partly due to very poor forest management policies spurred by misguided environmentalism, one might gain a different perspective. “Chopping down all the trees” is, of course, silly hyperbole. If a company makes its money through logging and timber products, it isn’t going to overcut and deliberately put itself out of business. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/26 "2002-08-22T23:52:33Z")
What **divemaster** said. Thinning good (and way overdue!), crown fires bad! Logging is good for this country. Thins overgrown forest, creates jobs, keeps a fresh supply of lumber for construction at low prices. (and thru twisted logic, rules and regulations, keeps areas open for multiple uses ie hiking, snowmobiling, trail riding yada yada yada) See ya! I’m off to go 4 wheelin’! * * * My pet suffers from dyslexia and a Christ complex. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/27 "2002-08-22T23:52:38Z")
> [@](#): > > If a company makes its money through logging and timber products, it isn’t going to overcut and deliberately put itself out of business. Yes, and Buffalo Hunt Tours aren’t gonna kill off all the buffalos. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/28 "2002-08-23T00:22:50Z")
\<\\> See, it wasn’t _their personal_ buffalo they were killing. I think economists call this, “The tragedy of the commons.” But, look at a feed-lot operator. He makes darn sure there’s always another generation of pigs or chicken at his own feed lot. ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/29 "2002-08-23T02:03:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > **Well, I don’t know about the legitimacy of your .org webite citation. Perhaps it’s true. I don’t play the “I’m a google dork, let’s hunt citations” game myself, I leave that to others. Probably coz I really don’t care that much about it, I don’t want to hunt the figures now** Ok, I’m going to be fair and operate under the assumption that you are not a complete idiot. I have taken the liberty of providing a few more cites. Little Honey has offered to translate if you sir, are too busy. Our phone number has been temporarily changed to accomodate this to, 1-800-bit-emee. (you will hear a recording saying that the number is not in service, just stay on the line until someone picks up). Or click on the links below and post an intelligent response. [link](http://www.arborday.org/media/stormsectiong.html) [link](http://www.trees2000.com/geninfo/facts.htm) [link](http://www.state.sc.us/forest/trpeople.htm) For the record, and as a “tree-hugger” and someone who would rather have a “stick in the eye” than agree with GB, I think that subtle thinning of the forest may not be a horrible idea. Note the emphasis on “subtle”. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/30 "2002-08-23T02:12:39Z")
Out of curiousity, **Tars** , have you any experience with a logging company? My parents both worked for one at one point, and of course as is only sensible, the company replanted; it would have been idiocy not to, as **december** has pointed out, because if they didn’t, they would indeed have gone out of business. Say what you will about logging companies; they may be vile rapacious bastards who don’t give a rat’s ass about the environment (not that I’d agree with such a characterization, mind you), but they are at least not stupid. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/31 "2002-08-23T02:27:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by g8rguy \* > \*\*Out of curiousity, **Tars** , have you any experience with a logging company? My parents both worked for one at one point, and of course as is only sensible, the company replanted; it would have been idiocy not to, as **december** has pointed out, because if they didn’t, they would indeed have gone out of business. Say what you will about logging companies; they may be vile rapacious bastards who don’t give a rat’s ass about the environment (not that I’d agree with such a characterization, mind you), but they are at least not stupid. \*\* I’ve been arguing this to **Tars** for some time, his opinion as I understand it is that people would take the short-term profit over the long-term security of future income… Which makes me wonder something. If the forestland were privately owned, there would be far more incentive to replant for the future. If, as we have now, the government owns all this land under the guise of “conservation”, and gives out logging rights for a period of a couple years, what incentive is there other than gov’t regs? Why not sell off all this publicly held land to private entities, so that those entities have the incentive to maintain the land and reap a continuing benefit from the land? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/32 "2002-08-23T02:29:45Z")
Yeah, well it’s _our_ forest, december, held in trust by George “Too Stupid to Get Into Yale on My Own Merit” Bush and the federal government. It is utter crap to even suggest that the logging companies will do anything that isn’t in their immediate best interest, because it’s not their goddamned property they’re cutting down. Wonder if they’ll even bother to charge them anything other than total-giveaway rates for the logging leases? Yeah, right, that’ll happen. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/33 "2002-08-23T02:47:51Z")
Pine marten. Pileated woodpecker. Thems likes the old woods. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/34 "2002-08-23T03:04:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Yeah, well it’s _our_ forest, december, held in trust by George “Too Stupid to Get Into Yale on My Own Merit” Bush and the federal government. It is utter crap to even suggest that the logging companies will do anything that isn’t in their immediate best interest, because it’s not their goddamned property they’re cutting down. > > Wonder if they’ll even bother to charge them anything other than total-giveaway rates for the logging leases? Yeah, right, that’ll happen. :mad: \*\* Ok, so far we have one idea on how to cut down on forest fires (G.W’s), and we have a lot of bitching and moaning (All of you enviro-dumbasses). Instead of the typical leftist ad hominem attacks against President Bush, how about we get some ‘better’ ideas on how to ‘control’ forest fires? For once, try putting forward a better idea, rather then just whine. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/35 "2002-08-23T03:21:00Z")
How 'bout letting them burn? It’s our policy of fighting them for the last century that’s let so much flammable material build up. Aside from taking direct efforts to prevent the fire from reaching inhabited areas, I have no problem letting the things burn themselves out. Wanna know why Florida was on fire for the last couple summers? Because all the people who moved in freaked out every time there was a tiny wildfire, preventing it from getting rid of teh underbrush. Do that shit for half a century, and there’s gonna be a lot of built-up underbrush. Notice that Florida is _not_ on fire this year? And there ain’t gonna be no more big fires in the parts of Colorado that just burned for a long, long time, either. And oh yeah, you could have just _asked_ what my preferred solution was. Like I’ve never thought of it before? Please. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/36 "2002-08-23T04:40:15Z")
How is letting it burn bettern than logging? I’m not being an ass I’m really curious. Seems to me that if the tree can burn or the tree can be turned into something the tree is gone in both cases but in the second I have something. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/37 "2002-08-23T04:54:30Z")
**Rex** , in fact, the company my parents worked for does indeed own a fair chunk of forest land (and probably lost their shirts in the Oregon fires, come to think of it), and it is entirely possible that their decision to replant is influenced greatly by this. On the other hand, the assertion that timber companies would choose the short-term profits and ignore long-term security is simply counter to both common sense and experience. Trees are, in essence, a logging company’s only assets, and if the CEO of some logging company wants his comfy pension to be paid out when he retires, he’s damn well going to make sure that his company will still be in business when he does. In that light, **minty** , it is in fact utter crap to imply that logging companies are all greedy rapacious scum who wouldn’t bother replanting or whatnot. Quite probably some companies wouldn’t bother, but it is mere speculation to suggest that all or even most companies would do that (question: do they do it now?), and I suspect that you would be, in fact, incredibly wrong. They may indeed be greedy and rapacious, but I fail to see why you’ve apparently decided that they’re also idiots. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/38 "2002-08-23T05:39:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Bush’s plan would streamline the government’s process for reviewing the environmental effects of proposed logging projects; change the standards by which those proposals are approved; **and allow government agencies to negotiate contracts giving timber companies and other entities the right to sell the wood products they harvest in exchange for removing them from the forest.** Is this really the entire gist of the plan? If I understand this correctly, then the plan makes it less likely that a bad logging project will be stopped, changes (lowers?) the criteria by which the projects are approved and, as for the last part (bolding mine): How is that phrase any different from saying: “If you come log this forest, we’ll let you sell the trees.”? I must have missed the part where they talked about clearing the underbrush and thinning. Has anyone actually seen the plan yet, because I certainly hope that summary isn’t what the plan is all about? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/39 "2002-08-23T05:52:37Z")
Virtually all logging companys in Alabama replant their land right after timber harvest. Most private, smaller landowners do this also. It’s the only thing that makes economic sense. I fail to see why anyone thinks burning trees up, thus polluting the environemnt with smoke, is better than logging the trees. Logging provides jobs and useful products. Wildfires are dangerous to life and property, kill wildlife, and put vast amounts of pollutants into the air. The reduced incidence of fires in Florida this year just _may_ have something to do with the greatly increased rainfall in that fair state. ---
**Author:** ![fizgig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f04885/32.png) [@fizgig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fizgig)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110/40 "2002-08-23T06:39:24Z")
I am all for thinning and brush management. However, Bush’s plan (this is the first I’ve read of it, bad, bad me), makes me jumpy. It is far too easy to put a positive, enviro-friendly spin on a bill that is geared solely at opening up millions of acres to clearcutting. Yes, forests are overgrown, and choking on underbrush, which causes more problems than just rampant, stand-replacing wildfires. However, I’ll stick with fires for now. In a natural forest system, fires burn in mosaics, and at low temperatures. This means that the smaller, weaker, diseased trees are taken out, and only in small patches of several acres at a go. Larger, robust trees that have evolved in such a system have the defenses to survive these fires intact. Even more, these fires are necessary in some species to spur regeneration (some cones are opened by the heat of cooler ground fires, encouraging new trees to germinate). Fast forward to the fires we’re seeing currently. These are fiece, hot, stand replacing fires that take out 100’s of thousands of acres at a time. Not only are they devestating to the tree populations themselves, wildlife are not able to get away from these fires, then recolonize as they pass. The heat of the fires actually has the ability to change the structure of soil particles, making them hydrophobic. This means that the soil sheds water rather than absorbing it. Less water = less plant regrowth, nevermind the increase in erosion from overland water flow. Because the fires are so large in size, there is little opportunity for organisms to recolonize after fires, without massive human intervention, costing further millions of dollars. Solutions? I’m not sure. As I see it, from my summer of walking 10-40 year old replanted stands of Doug Fir in Oregon, there is a lot of small wood in there that needs to come out. Perhaps some more PR on the benefits of using manufactured wood products (think hi-tech particle board) is in order. Most of the trees that _should_ come out are going to be about worthless for any type of solid wood boards, etc. The loggers will be gunning for the high-value healthy timber that would be better off staying in the forest. Another issue I see with pulling sufficient timber out of stands to make it that worthwhile to loggers is that massive wind-thro problems will ensue. Trees growing in cramped quarters don’t have the root system to hold themselves down when the protection from wind their neighbors afforded them is gone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/only-loggers-can-prevent-forest-fires/125110.md?page=3)