# Onward Christian Soldiers: Fundies taking over the military **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 14, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603 "2008-02-14T15:42:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/1 "2008-02-14T15:42:31Z")
[Link](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080214063450.m1i2f0gz&show_article=1) > [@](#): > > ``` > Since his last combat deployment in Iraq, Jeremy Hall has had a rough time, getting shoved and threatened by his fellow soldiers. The trouble started there when he would not pray in the mess hall. > > ``` > > “A senior ranking staff sergeant told me to leave and sit somewhere else because I refused to pray,” Hall, a 23-year-old US army specialist, told AFP. > > Later, Hall was confronted by a major for holding an authorized meeting of “atheists and freethinkers” on his base. The officer threatened to discipline him and block his re-enlistment. > > “He said: ‘You guys are being a problem and problems can be removed,’” Hall said. “He was yelling at us and stuff and at the very end he says, ‘I really love you guys, I want you to see the light.’” > > Now Hall is suing the major and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, accusing them of breaching his constitutional rights. A campaign group, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is waiting for the Pentagon to respond to a lawsuit filed in a Kansas federal court on Hall’s behalf. > > It alleges a “pernicious pattern and practice” of infringement of religious liberties in the military. > > The group’s founder, former Air Force lawyer Mikey Weinstein, said he has documented 6,800 testimonies by military personnel – nearly all of them Christians – of sometimes punitive or humiliating attempts to make them accept a fundamentalist evangelical interpretation of Christianity. One of the biggest problems is a Christo-facist, militant theocratic organization called the “Officers’ Christian Fellowship.” > [@](#): > > OCF’s aim, as stated on its website, is to achieve “a spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform, empowered by the Holy Spirit.” > > It professes belief in “the eternal blessedness of the saved; and the everlasting, conscious punishment of the lost.” The really scary thing is not just they harrass atheists (we’re all used to that), but that the majority of their targets are other Christians: > [@](#): > > A former military chaplain of a prestigious US military college reported being prevented from leading worship after disagreeing with the fundamentalist stance of other officials. > > “I am not ready to say that if someone does not profess Christ as their savior that they are going to hell … That got a lot of people angered,” the minister told AFP, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation against a spouse who is a senior officer. > > “The leader of the youth group that ministered to the teens (at the academy) said that Catholics were not Christians and that Muslims hated Christians, and that created a lot of tension,” the ex-chaplain added. > > “As a soldier, many times you want to believe you’re fighting on the right side. It’s easy to kill someone if you believe that they’re going to hell and that they are religiously opposed to you.” That last part sounds an awful lot like how _al Qaeda_ thinks. Is there really any difference anymore? What can be done about this. Shouldn’t it be the job of the CiC to set a tone? These OCF zealots need to be pulled up by the short hairs. This sicko goal of a fundy army (not just a Christian army, a specifically evangelical fundamentalist army) needs to be addressed and snuffed out immediately by this President or the next. They’re supposed to be fighting for America (i.e for freedom of thought), not Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/2 "2008-02-14T16:00:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] That last part sounds an awful lot like how _al Qaeda_ thinks. Is there really any difference anymore? [/QUOTE] You’re absolutely spot on. The frustration is that that, based on some of my acquaintances, they can’t even see the irony in “fighting for freedom” \*and \*“make everyone [my brand of] Christian.” ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/3 "2008-02-14T16:31:29Z")
This is the danger of fighting a war against a religion. It turns into a Crusade. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/4 "2008-02-14T16:41:51Z")
How do they deal with fellow soldiers who are Muslim? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/5 "2008-02-14T16:48:43Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] [Link](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080214063450.m1i2f0gz&show_article=1) One of the biggest problems is a Christo-facist, militant theocratic organization called the “Officers’ Christian Fellowship.” The really scary thing is not just they harrass atheists (we’re all used to that), but that the majority of their targets are other Christians: That last part sounds an awful lot like how _al Qaeda_ thinks. Is there really any difference anymore? What can be done about this. Shouldn’t it be the job of the CiC to set a tone? These OCF zealots need to be pulled up by the short hairs. This sicko goal of a fundy army (not just a Christian army, a specifically evangelical fundamentalist army) needs to be addressed and snuffed out immediately by this President or the next. They’re supposed to be fighting for America (i.e for freedom of thought), not Jesus. [/QUOTE] My Dad is a retired MG that served 36 years in the USAR from 1963-1999. Both his brothers are retired colonels as well. I am a 5-year vet from 1988-1993. I have been around military people, in the field, in a combat zone, and I have NEVER experienced what is being described here. This has to be an isolated (but no less dangerous) incident of some kind. I hope that the military commanders that have been made aware of this outrageous behavior swiftly crush it…that’s no way to maintain the morale of a fighting force, or even treat fellow people in general. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/6 "2008-02-14T16:50:56Z")
**Diogenes** , that’s scary, sickening and incredibly counterproductive. Don’t these people even realise that such an fundamentalist attitude endangers the UN peace-corps missions these soldiers will also take part in? How can an army be a neutral presence if they adhere to a brand of “Christianity” that so explicitly condems all other faiths, including other Christian faiths? Suppose they’re stationed as a peace corps in some USSR nation. Will they picket at the local Orthodox Russian Church? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/7 "2008-02-14T16:53:33Z")
[http://www.irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html](http://www.irregulartimes.com/holywarriorbush.html) Where do they get this stuff. Here? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/8 "2008-02-14T16:55:03Z")
Wouldn’t that be interesting if you could get out of the draft by saying you are an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/9 "2008-02-14T16:56:05Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] My Dad is a retired MG that served 36 years in the USAR from 1963-1999. Both his brothers are retired colonels as well. I am a 5-year vet from 1988-1993. I have been around military people, in the field, in a combat zone, and I have NEVER experienced what is being described here. This has to be an isolated (but no less dangerous) incident of some kind. [/QUOTE] With respect and a salute to you and yours for service to the nation…it is possible that military culture has changed since 1993. Even since 1999. For one thing, politics influences today’s military much more strongly since 9/11. For another, religion (specifically, fundamentalist Protestant religion) influences politics much more strongly as well. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/10 "2008-02-14T17:00:15Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] My Dad is a retired MG that served 36 years in the USAR from 1963-1999. Both his brothers are retired colonels as well. I am a 5-year vet from 1988-1993. I have been around military people, in the field, in a combat zone, and I have NEVER experienced what is being described here. This has to be an isolated (but no less dangerous) incident of some kind. I hope that the military commanders that have been made aware of this outrageous behavior swiftly crush it…that’s no way to maintain the morale of a fighting force, or even treat fellow people in general. [/QUOTE] I think it must be pretty recent. It wasn’t like that when I was in either. In my time (mid 80’s) there was a mildly religiose culture in the military, more thoughtlessly presumptuous than aggressively proselytizing or discriminatory. We had group prayers and stuff like that but it never really seemed oppressive. It appears to be a new ball game now, though. There is a decidedly Jihadist tone among conservative evangelicals with regards to the so-called “War on Terror” these days and I think a lot of those evangelicals have brought that attitude into the military with them. I suspect that this is not really a function of military policy, but of the military being infested with Jihadist Christians. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/11 "2008-02-14T17:06:16Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] With respect and a salute to you and yours for service to the nation…it is possible that military culture has changed since 1993. Even since 1999. For one thing, politics influences today’s military much more strongly since 9/11. For another, religion (specifically, fundamentalist Protestant religion) influences politics much more strongly as well. [/QUOTE] Well, that may be true, but my cousins (one of whom has returned and one whom is still there) both went to Iraq this go around, and they didn’t describe any kind of behavior like this either (I know, you’re thinking “What is it with this guy’s family and the military?”)…but I never directly addressed this topic, either. I’d have to say without really knowing for certain that this has to be a case of a mountain out of a molehill in the sense of how pervasive this issue is. Even though I have been away from active duty for awhile, and was in the pre-9/11 military, I just haven’t heard anything like this before, and my Dad is a guy with a lot of connections and he sends me all kinds of unbelievable stuff…but never anything like this. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/12 "2008-02-14T17:34:53Z")
Well, I’m still on active duty and I’ve never seen something like in the article. A commander can’t order someone to church or to observe a specific religion. I’d imagine if this was a widespread situation morale would break down pretty fast. I know if I personally encountered it, I’d be breaking the sound barrier reporting it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/13 "2008-02-14T18:24:36Z")
Funny, [I wondered about these trends a while ago.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=352466&page=1&pp=50) And nobody seemed to be much alarmed then. Strange. If only evangelicals are enlisting in appreciable numbers, you’ll get a situation where they overstep at times. I feel this is disturbing, but not for the reasons most of you do, likely. After all, this situation would likely be mitigated if more liberal people were enlisting. They’re not. I’ve demonstrated before the disparity in enlistment rates there, especially among the officer corps that ultimately has to keep discipline. I don’t like this situation either, but leave an entire political culture shun military service, and it gets lots worse. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/14 "2008-02-14T18:46:03Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Funny, [I wondered about these trends a while ago.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=352466&page=1&pp=50) And nobody seemed to be much alarmed then. Strange. If only evangelicals are enlisting in appreciable numbers, you’ll get a situation where they overstep at times. I feel this is disturbing, but not for the reasons most of you do, likely. After all, this situation would likely be mitigated if more liberal people were enlisting. They’re not. I’ve demonstrated before the disparity in enlistment rates there, especially among the officer corps that ultimately has to keep discipline. I don’t like this situation either, but leave an entire political culture shun military service, and it gets lots worse. [/QUOTE] I still find your premise dubious, but do you think doing nothing about the apparently fundamentalist culture within the military will _increase_ the number of liberals who enlist? Or did you just want to tut-tut about liberals and their lack of commitment? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/15 "2008-02-14T18:59:37Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Funny, [I wondered about these trends a while ago.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=352466&page=1&pp=50) And nobody seemed to be much alarmed then. Strange. If only evangelicals are enlisting in appreciable numbers, you’ll get a situation where they overstep at times. I feel this is disturbing, but not for the reasons most of you do, likely. After all, this situation would likely be mitigated if more liberal people were enlisting. They’re not. I’ve demonstrated before the disparity in enlistment rates there, especially among the officer corps that ultimately has to keep discipline. I don’t like this situation either, but leave an entire political culture shun military service, and it gets lots worse. [/QUOTE] This is just victim-blaming. Maybe liberals are just wary of getting onto a bus that’s being driven by a chimp into oncoming traffic. It takes a certain level of intellectual impairment to buy into Iraq (or TWAT in general) as projects worth risking life and limb for. You basically have to be a retard to want to enlist in the military at the moment, hence you get a military dominated by beetle-browed Christian Jihadists who think they’re fighting a Holy war for Jesus. Having said that, any alleged dearth of “liberals” enlisting in the military (an assertion which you haven’t actually supported, incidentally) is irrelevant. It’s not majority rule. The First Amendment exists to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. As for the suggestion that the problem could be mitigated if more non-fundies enlisted (I guess you’re assuming that all Catholics are liberals), that’s quite unnecessary. The military is a dictatorship, not a democracy, and the problem can and should be mitigated by the CiC and the chain of command, not by telling liberals they should enlist to become activist reformers. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/16 "2008-02-14T19:19:24Z")
Oh, I disagree. First of all, the military isn’t a dictatorship. At most it hierarchical and somewhat authoritarian - but it gives considerable latitude to its personnel provided they don’t run into trouble - and trouble is generally interpreted as getting caught, not disobeying regulations. So with that to consider, the overall culture of the organization comes into play. And this culture has been shifting for a long time - the cites I noted in the other thread were from research conducted before Bush came into office, so that particular canard won’t fly. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/17 "2008-02-14T19:34:42Z")
I normally don’t wander into the Pit, but I managed to wander my way in here. If that’s true, what’s happening in the given cites, then that’s beyond disgusting. Usually when our country has some kind of a social ill, we tend to say “oops” by pushing the pendulum back the other way instead of finding a way to get it a lot closer to the middle. Sometimes the pendulum pushing strides are noble in nature and as a goal, but in practice they don’t quite pan out they way they were intended. Where I’m going with this rambling is that if we every got to pushing back the pendulum back against the fundies as it appears it has been pushed, you’d be hearing a lot of allusions to Sodom and Gomorrah. I don’t know, I’m rambling a little bit, but this is completely unacceptable. This religious stuff is fine for your clubs and churches, and if you want to life your lives like that, that’s fine, but you can’t expect an entire country to do the same, not when a line has already been drawn in the sand that says there have to be differences. Do you _want_ to be like Iran? Do you _want_ a theocracy? If so, what’s the difference between “us” and “them”? If you want a society that helps its lowest common denominator and doesn’t actively engage in military activities and is a good steward, then isn’t it about time that you started acting/voting/talking like it? Of course, this has little to no regard for a perverse individual that may think that the Earth is our rock to do whatever we want with it because the end of times is coming next June. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/18 "2008-02-14T19:37:16Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] **Shouldn’t it be the job of the CiC to set a tone**? These OCF zealots need to be pulled up by the short hairs. This sicko goal of a fundy army (not just a Christian army, a specifically evangelical fundamentalist army) needs to be addressed and snuffed out immediately by this President or the next. They’re supposed to be fighting for America (i.e for freedom of thought), not Jesus. [/QUOTE] If you don’t think this is pretty much the tone Mr. Bush wants, you are not who I think you are. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/19 "2008-02-14T19:44:24Z")
“May I have that in writing, please?” seems like such a small and reasonable request to make of a superior officer or non-comm who applies pressure such as that reported by Specialist Hall. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/20 "2008-02-14T19:50:48Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] “May I have that in writing, please?” seems like such a small and reasonable request to make of a superior officer or non-comm who applies pressure such as that reported by Specialist Hall. [/QUOTE] When you find yourself stuck with shitty “collateral duties” for the rest of your tour, have incidents meticulously documented in your record that are dealt with “informally” for other soldiers, and consequently have your evaluations suffer and promotion opportunity fucked with, you’ll learn how well this flies. I don’t envy the soldiers in this position - I’ve been in similar ones, though not for religious matters. All you can do is document enough wrongdoing to get the superior’s superior to handle it - and even then, you have to go about things the right way. Otherwise it can boomerang on you. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603.md?page=2)