# Onward Christian Soldiers: Fundies taking over the military **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 14, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603 "2008-02-14T15:42:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/81 "2008-02-17T20:41:48Z")
Thank you, **spifflog** , even though you made me cry. We are very proud of him – I’m feeling a bit emotional right now with him getting ready to leave on Wednesday. I very much appreciate the kind words. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/82 "2008-02-17T21:16:05Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] How do they deal with fellow soldiers who are Muslim? [/QUOTE] Grease their cartridges with pork fat, and grind cow bones into the powder of Hindu troops: how do you think the Brits managed to trigger the Indian Mutiny? \*Actually it wasn’t a deliberate policy, it wasn’t widespread, and it was stopped, but a combination of blinkered pig-ignorance towards Hindu caste laws and Muslim prohibitions, together with an inexperienced officer corps who aggressively evangelised their own faith really didn’t help the perception that the Brits _were_ out to Christianise India. The Flashman books really ought to be mandatory reading for all armies. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/83 "2008-02-19T16:13:58Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] So there is a lot that can be done, and should be done - but calling for discharges and prosecutions ain’t it. [/QUOTE] It depends on the severity of the offense. If there is any real grounds for the accusations leveled agains the major referenced in the OP, that’s a level of abuse of authority that calls for prosecution (and dishonorable discharge in case of conviction). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/84 "2008-02-19T16:45:47Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] You’ve reiterated this and blithely bypassed innuendos that it was a matter of opinion. Now, I’m asking: _ **Cite?** _ I’m not even necessarily disagreeing with it – as noted by others above, liberals tend to have a higher moral stance than to get involved in wars of agression against smaller, weaker nations. But kindly indicate where you derived this information from, so that in case you get constipated, we can find it other places than where you’ve (from appearances to date) pulled it from. [/QUOTE] Apologies for not getting back to this sooner. It was a busy weekend for me. Anyway, I have said before that these trends were very long-term, and have been noted by Peter Feaver of Duke University in several works in the past. It was also discussed at length by Thomas Ricks in the July 1997 _Atlantic_: > [@](#): > > Today the available evidence indicates that all these trends have reversed. The military appears to be becoming politically less representative of society, with a long-term downward trend in the number of officers willing to identify themselves as liberals. Open identification with the Republican Party is becoming the norm. And the few remaining liberals in uniform tend to be colonels and generals, perhaps because they began their careers in the draft-era military. The junior officer corps, apart from its female and minority members, appears to be overwhelmingly hard-right Republican and largely comfortable with the views of Rush Limbaugh. Air Force Colonel Charles Dunlap observed in a recent essay published by the Air Force Academy, “Many officers privately expressed delight that” as a result of the controversy over gays in the military, the Reserve Officers Training Corps program is producing “fewer officers from the more liberal campuses to challenge [the Air Force officers’] increasingly right-wing philosophy.” > > A variety of recent formal and informal surveys point toward those conclusions. Midshipmen at Annapolis, who in 1974 were similar in their politics to their peers at civilian colleges, are now twice as likely as other students to consider themselves conservative, according to an unpublished internal Navy survey. “The shift to the right has been rather remarkable, even while there has been an infusion of rather more liberal women and minorities,” one of the study’s conductors concluded. > > Former Army Major Dana Isaacoff, who taught at West Point in the early 1990s, routinely surveyed her students on their politics, assessing about sixty of them during each of six semesters. In a typical section, she reported in a talk last year at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, seventeen would identify themselves as Republican, but none would label themselves Democratic or Independent, instead choosing the traditional course of adopting no political label. She concluded that to today’s West Point cadets, being a Republican is becoming part of the definition of being a military officer. “Students overwhelmingly identified themselves as conservatives,” she said. Here the definition of conservatism is important: this does not appear to be the compromising, solution-oriented politics of, say, Bob Dole. “There is a tendency among the cadets to adopt the mainstream conservative attitudes and push them to extremes,” Isaacoff said. “The Democratic-controlled Congress was Public Enemy Number One. Number Two was the liberal media. . . . They firmly believed in the existence of the Welfare Queen.” I have agreed above that any infractions ought to be dealt with, and that the UCMJ is more than adequate to deal with this - but I don’t think we should be at all happy that the military, and especially the officer corps, is becoming a monoculture. That’s not healthy, and I would be the first to state that even though that particular monoculture is one which has values I broadly share. I was in the military in the 1990s, during the Clinton Administration, and noticed some of these trends firsthand. Ricks and Feaver noticed some of them around that same time, and events since 2001 haven’t made the problem much better - in fact, it is likely that the monoculture has deepened. Conservatives may have been willing to serve under Clinton, but liberals aren’t enthusiastic about serving under Bush. ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/85 "2008-02-19T18:17:19Z")
I’m just not sure, **Mr. Moto** … My anecdotal experience just doesn’t add up to anything like a monoculture, although I don’t doubt there are some who would like to see that be the case. While it’s definately true that the military (and my personal experience is all with the Navy) skews somewhat to the right; I’ve known plenty of sailors who were open Democrats. Now, my own active duty days were long ago (got out in 1986); and I was enlisted. But my husband just retired 6 years ago, and he spent the last 14 years of his 26 years active duty as an officer. He had shipmates scattered all along the political continuum – although there was a pronounced skew to the right in comparison to the civilian sector. No surprise there. Kevin was an officer throughout Clinton’s term, BTW, and into Bush’s first term – there were certainly some vehement Clinton-haters among his shipmates; but there were plenty of open Clinton supporters, too. Same with Bush – some supporters, but plenty in the wardroom who thoroughly disliked him. There were frequent rousing wardroom debates about politics, but there wasn’t any opprobrium attached to the liberal folks – certainly not officially. And, as I mentioned before, my son is active duty right now. Nick leans Libertarian himself, but does know some liberal guys, as well as some guys who lean far more to the right than he does himself. He is enlisted, and part of the medical community, which is known to have less military bearing than other communities. On the other hand, he is attached to a Marine unit and Marines have _more_ military bearing than most, so it all levels out. This is all anecdotal, of course, but I don’t think it’s any more so than the evidence **Mr. Moto** has cited. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/86 "2008-02-19T18:52:17Z")
Right. Most of the problems noted have been among the officers - the enlisted ranks are more mixed, though still skew right a little bit. Still, I think this would tend to worsen problems like those described in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![MidnightRadio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@MidnightRadio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MidnightRadio)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/87 "2008-02-22T22:11:13Z")
[QUOTE=Linty Fresh] That’s a good question, and I’m afraid I don’t know. I registered as a Catholic before basic. I lost my faith after about a year in and didn’t bother to change my preference. [/QUOTE] You have to register your religion when signing up for the armed forces? That’s really shocking to me. And very disturbing. What’s the stated purpose for their wanting that information? And can you refuse to answer the question? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2008, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/88 "2008-02-22T22:15:42Z")
[QUOTE=MidnightRadio] You have to register your religion when signing up for the armed forces? That’s really shocking to me. And very disturbing. What’s the stated purpose for their wanting that information? And can you refuse to answer the question? [/QUOTE] It’s a standard form…you’ve probably filled out something similar a bunch of times and not even thought about it. IIRC it was something like ‘Religious Preference’. And you can pick ‘none’ if you want. Why do they ask? Probably the same reason large organizations ask anything…demographics information. It’s really not that big a deal…and if you pick none it’s not like they won’t take you (again from memory that is what I picked). -XT ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/89 "2008-02-22T22:41:16Z")
[QUOTE=MidnightRadio] You have to register your religion when signing up for the armed forces? That’s really shocking to me. And very disturbing. What’s the stated purpose for their wanting that information? And can you refuse to answer the question? [/QUOTE] Demographic, as **xtisme** mentions, I’m sure, and I suspect so that someone knows what kind of Last Rites/funeral to make sure the soldier has should that become necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2008, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/90 "2008-02-22T23:13:10Z")
One is not required to register one’s religion when in the US Armed Forces. It’s an optional question. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/91 "2008-02-23T04:04:58Z")
[QUOTE=MidnightRadio] You have to register your religion when signing up for the armed forces? That’s really shocking to me. And very disturbing. What’s the stated purpose for their wanting that information? And can you refuse to answer the question? [/QUOTE] They like to know how many chaplains they need to hire, and where to assign them. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/92 "2008-02-23T10:27:38Z")
Is your religious preference stamped on your dog tags? I ask because in the late fifties many high school students were issued dog tags when we thought the Soviet Union and the United States would probably blow each other up. They had our names, our father’s name, our addresses, blood types, and our general religious preference. (Note the singular; everyone in my school was Protestant. We were very boring for a public school.) > [@](#): > > **FoieGrasisEvil** : I just haven’t heard anything like this before, and my Dad is a guy with a lot of connections and he sends me all kinds of unbelievable stuff…but never anything like this. The problems at the Air Force Academy were extensive and caused a major scandal that lasted several months. You should still be able to find information on it by googling. I do remember that part of it involved a chaplin – a woman, I think. I think she was actually one of the victims. > [@](#): > > **Revtim** : Kinda like how the KKK needs to have more blacks join, to help alleviate their racism. Ding! Ding! Ding! And we have a wiiiiiiiinnnnnnner! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/93 "2008-02-23T13:45:40Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] Is your religious preference stamped on your dog tags? [/QUOTE] Yes. Mine say Methodist. This was before my conversion turned me into one of those Papists. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/94 "2008-02-23T14:34:48Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] God knows there can be no higher authority than an alcoholic drug addicted communist. [/QUOTE] That is a truly stupid statement. are you saying because you disapprove of Mailer lifestyle he can never be right. Is the corollary ,that your superior life style and values mean you can never be wrong. Debate the subject and do not be a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/95 "2008-02-23T16:35:39Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] Do these assholes try and convert the Iraqis as well? [/QUOTE] I have not been to Iraq yet but we are getting ready to go. Trying to push your religion on Iraqis is a court martial offense. It is in the general order for those deployed to Iraq (somewhere between no alcohol and no porn). I have been in the army for 19 years, both active and national guard. I have never seen this. I have always felt that there is too much religion in the military but that usually consisted of the chaplain saying a prayer before an event or mission. Most chaplains make it very nondenominational. The ones I can’t stand push their own agenda and religion. I have seen many Mormons in the army. I have never seen them harassed. I have seen many non evangelical Christians and I have never seen them harassed. Most (a very large majority) of those in the army that I have dealt with are not religious at all. Maybe not atheist but they don’t go to church. I have never seen anyone pushed into becoming religious or towards going to a specific church. The last time I was told it would be a good idea to go to church was in Basic Training and that was only because they couldn’t fuck with you there. If you stayed in the barracks on Sunday morning they might find something for you to clean. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/96 "2008-02-23T20:09:25Z")
Chaplains (in the US military, at least) are not supposed to be trying to convert the members of the military. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/97 "2008-02-23T21:35:28Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Chaplains (in the US military, at least) are not supposed to be trying to convert the members of the military. [/QUOTE] That’s true to an extent - but if a servicemember expresses a desire on his own to convert, the chaplain should facilitate this to the maximum degree possible. I started to explore becoming a Catholic while I was still in the Navy, and chaplains of various stripes - Protestant and Catholic both - were very helpful in getting me any information I requested. Chaplains are there to provide for the religious needs of servicemembers, and if that need includes conversion in an individual case, they have to provide for that as well. I don’t know of too many people who would find a problem with this. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/98 "2008-02-24T04:30:00Z")
The [Religious Tolerance](http://www.religioustolerance.org/relintolafa.htm) website has a good “detailed but concise” explanation of the charges and complaints at the Air Force Academy beginning in about 2004. There were at least fifty complaints which resulted in a rewritten policy for the entire Air Force. There was only one complaint at the Naval Academy and none at West Point. I am left to wonder why this happened at just the Air Force Academy. I’m young enought to still think of it as “the new academy.” This is certainly a different place from the one where friends of mine graduated in the mid 1960s. What is scarey to me is that the rewritten policy – which seems beautifully in line with our Constitution – was criticized by a well known leader of the religious right. That left me puzzled. _What the hell does he want?_ ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/99 "2008-02-24T12:15:29Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] The [Religious Tolerance](http://www.religioustolerance.org/relintolafa.htm) website has a good “detailed but concise” explanation of the charges and complaints at the Air Force Academy beginning in about 2004. There were at least fifty complaints which resulted in a rewritten policy for the entire Air Force. [/QUOTE] If you’ll look at my post above, you’ll find that the problem predated 2004 by a considerable degree. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2008, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603/100 "2008-02-24T13:05:08Z")
[QUOTE=John DiFool] [You had best sound off that you love the Virgin Mary…](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s9F7p3w9jQ) Of course the DI’s real purpose in his rant was to check the mettle of his recruit and see if he would stick to his guns, which is the kind of thing that the military’s leaders (from non-coms on up) should really be focusing on. [/QUOTE] Could a “Hail Mary” work as a cadence? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/onward-christian-soldiers-fundies-taking-over-the-military/437603.md?page=6)