# Ooooh, You Mean Ol' Pope, You! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440 "2003-07-28T14:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/21 "2003-07-28T17:05:52Z")
Hey im not catholic but i agree that homosexuality is wrong. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/22 "2003-07-28T17:19:32Z")
Not that I agree with the stance, but I can’t see how anyone is surprised that the Pope wants the law to agree with his religious doctrine. If the law freely allows all of the things his religion considers wrong, then his flock will still be surrounded by it, right? If I were an avid follower, I’d be PISSED if he just shrugged his shoulders and said “we don’t make the law”. We should go out and do the “right” thing and try to stop all of this “bad” stuff from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/23 "2003-07-28T17:29:41Z")
I would hope that even an avid follower would understand the whole live-and-let-live concept. I know many if not most don’t, though. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/24 "2003-07-28T17:45:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andygirl \* > \*\*Now that I officially know I have the Pope’s disapproval I’m going to have to transfer to a Catholic school and make things simply willy-nilly. 'Cause I’m evil like that. \*\* I saw a movie like that once. ---
**Author:** ![xcheopis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bc8723/32.png) [@xcheopis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xcheopis)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/25 "2003-07-28T17:45:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by carrot \* > \*\*… the near-constant genuflecting… \*\* Doin’ the Vatican Rag! ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/26 "2003-07-28T17:48:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > Not that I agree with the stance, but I can’t see how anyone is surprised that the Pope wants the law to agree with his religious doctrine. If the law freely allows all of the things his religion considers wrong, then his flock will still be surrounded by it, right? > > If I were an avid follower, I’d be PISSED if he just shrugged his shoulders and said “we don’t make the law”. We should go out and do the “right” thing and try to stop all of this “bad” stuff from happening. Well, the Church still pretty much considers it to be a Bad Thing to not be a Catholic, but they no longer want that to be enforced by the state. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/27 "2003-07-28T17:54:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > Hey im not catholic but i agree that homosexuality is wrong. 🙂 At the risk of trying to teach a being with no vocal chords to sing, defend the assertion that homosexuality is wrong. [sub]Takers on what angle-we’ve-seen-and-refuted this particular individual will use?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/28 "2003-07-28T18:05:46Z")
It could be that he’s just not doing it right. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/29 "2003-07-28T18:11:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*Really, what DO they do all day there? > > I can imagine a typical day: > > 1. Check email > 2. Check if Christ is still dead > 3. repeat \*\* Do you have _any idea_ just how much time and effort it takes to find a steady supply of young boys to have sex with, then the constant struggle to conceal evidence? I imagine they are quite busy, indeed! Is this a good place for one of these? ;j * * * “Why walk all the way to London when you can make a fortune on you back here at home?” ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/30 "2003-07-28T18:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey im not catholic but i agree that homosexuality is wrong. 🙂 Why on earth did you put a happy face on such a hateful statement? After your soon-to-be-posted refutation of homosexuality, I look forward to your attack on having blue eyes or being lefthanded. Hint: You can’t disagree with sexual orientation any more than you can with skin, hair, or eye color. All the arguing in the world will not change my eyes from green to blue or my hair from auburn to red, and neither will it make my hormones surge to curvaceous babes instead of muscular hunks. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/31 "2003-07-28T18:22:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > [sub]Takers on what angle-we’ve-seen-and-refuted this particular individual will use?[/sub] \*\* I’d place a bet but I’m still trying to pry apart all these stuck-together pages in my Sear’s catalog. You’ll just have to sit and wait, tiger. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/32 "2003-07-28T18:34:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*. . . and them trying to force their values onto us by affecting the laws. \*\* Right, but there’s nothing wrong in itself with advocating a change in the law, or in seeking to use the law to reflect certain societal values. Those people seeking to change the law to include legal recognition of gay relationships are also “forcing their values” on society…they’re seeking to change the law to reflect their values. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/33 "2003-07-28T18:34:50Z")
Hey, the Pope has the right to guide Catholic politicians in how he (the church) feels they should legislate. It’s his job to guide his flock-- and that means the Catholic priests, the bricklayers, the secretaries, _and_ the politicans. If you don’t like the way the Catholic politicians are voting (should they choose to follow the Pope’s lead here), then don’t vote for them. The end. Large organizations try and tell politicians how to vote every fucking day of the year. Unions, big tobacco, corporations, NRA, NOW, ACLU, NAACP, and, yes, religious organizations. Some of these organizations that lobby Congress hold positions I don’t argree with. Sometimes politicians listen to those lobbyists and vote for something I don’t agree with. Whoop-de-doo. If this sort of lobbying pisses you off, tell it to the ballot box. Happy ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/34 "2003-07-28T18:41:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*Right, but there’s nothing wrong in itself with advocating a change in the law, or in seeking to use the law to reflect certain societal values. Those people seeking to change the law to include legal recognition of gay relationships are also “forcing their values” on society…they’re seeking to change the law to reflect their values. \*\* “Those people seeking to change the law to include legal recognition of gay relationships” are not seeking to force straight people to marry those of their own sex, nor are they trying to make straight marriage illegal. They are trying to change laws that effect _only themselves_. And the Pope should concern himself _only with Catholics_. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/35 "2003-07-28T18:44:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* All the arguing in the world will not change my eyes from green to blue or my hair from auburn to red, and neither will it make my hormones surge to curvaceous babes instead of muscular hunks. \*\* Your eyes are _green_? That is just _so_ wrong! ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/36 "2003-07-28T19:11:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Captain Amazing_ > > **Right, but there’s nothing wrong in itself with advocating a change in the law, or in seeking to use the law to reflect certain societal values. Those people seeking to change the law to include legal recognition of gay relationships are also “forcing their values” on society…they’re seeking to change the law to reflect their values.** Underlining mine. Just curious… Is striving for _equality_ across the board “forcing their values” on society? If it is, how so? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/37 "2003-07-28T19:14:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*“Those people seeking to change the law to include legal recognition of gay relationships” are not seeking to force straight people to marry those of their own sex, nor are they trying to make straight marriage illegal. They are trying to change laws that effect _only themselves_. And the Pope should concern himself _only with Catholics_. \*\* Well, except the laws don’t affect only themselves, but the whole society. They affect gay people most directly, of course, but they also affect society. When the state says “You two people are married”, what it is saying is, “This state and society grants your relationship a legal recognition, which carries with it certain legal rights and responsibilities, from inheritance, to survivor benefits and pensions, to custody of children.” So allowing gay marriage affects not only gay people who will now get these legal rights and responsibilities, but also society, who will now say, “Your relationship is worthy of these rights and responsibilities”, and also will spend state money to maintain them. If someone’s spouse is entitled to their spouse’s old age benefits on that spouse’s death, as is the case in the US with Social Security, the state, and every single one of us, indirectly through our taxes, would have to pay benefits to the surviving gay spouse. And the pope is concerning himself only with Catholics. His instructions and advice is restricted only to Catholic politicians. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/38 "2003-07-28T19:15:12Z")
> [@](#): > > The problem is not his condemnation, but his encouragement of laws that affect non-Catholics as well. Wow, you’re surprised that a man claiming to be god’s work tries to influence how the entire population live their lives, even if they are never a member of his church? Wait, are we talking about the Pope here? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/39 "2003-07-28T19:21:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hopefool \* > \*\*Underlining mine. > > Just curious… Is striving for _equality_ across the board “forcing their values” on society? If it is, how so? \*\* It is, because the idea that gay relationships should be equal to straight relationships is itself a moral value. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/40 "2003-07-28T19:31:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by neutron star \* > **You know, just once I’d like to hear a high-ranking religious leader say, "Well, we don’t really agree with that practice, but you know what? We don’t control the laws and we don’t want to. As long as no homosexuals are getting married in the churches of our religion, we’re cool."** How about this, from a former Presiding Bishop (equivalent to Pope but don’t let HIM hear that ;)) of the largest Lutheran confederation in the US? > [@](#): > > [http://www.thelutheran.org/0306/page43.html](http://www.thelutheran.org/0306/page43.html) > > The church must welcome gays and lesbians without reservation and make every effort to do so without causing division among its members, say Herbert Chilstrom, former ELCA presiding bishop, and Lowell Erdahl, former St. Paul Area Synod bishop. > > … > > Chilstrom told the 240 participants: “I don’t want to do anything to destroy the unity of our ELCA. So that raises the question for some, ‘Why would you spend time trying to open minds in an area where you know there is going to be division and disunity and even potential for schism?’ The only answer I can give to that question is justice. Slowly but surely I came to the conclusion that there were significant numbers of people in the ELCA who were being pushed aside, ignored and in some cases deliberately discriminated against.” > > … > > Several speakers argued that the church should encourage and bless committed relationships among gays and lesbians. Lundblad took issue with the idea that recognizing such unions could lead to the degradation of marriage. “Alcohol, economics, abuse, family difficulties, religious quarrels — we could probably name 50 things that are really damaging to marriage,” she said. “But homosexuality is rarely the problem.” > > Ordination of gay and lesbian people in committed relationships was another theme that surfaced repeatedly during the event. ELCA policy forbids such ordinations. Chilstrom noted that the ELCA has no ban on homosexuals in committed relationships serving as organists, Sunday school teachers and lay ministers, yet it denies them pastoral appointments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440.md?page=3)