# Ooooh, You Mean Ol' Pope, You! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440 "2003-07-28T14:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/41 "2003-07-28T19:38:22Z")
"Hey im not catholic but i agree that homosexuality is wrong. " Then why do all of the newer confessionals have glory holes in them? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/42 "2003-07-28T19:48:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Wow, you’re surprised that a man claiming to be god’s work tries to influence how the entire population live their lives, even if they are never a member of his church? \*\* No, why do you think I’m surprised? Being against something != being surprised by it. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/43 "2003-07-28T19:49:42Z")
Nice post, **dropzone**. Enlightening. As far as what’s-it’s-face and his “i agree” post, DNFTT. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/44 "2003-07-28T19:51:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > > **It is, because the idea that gay relationships should be equal to straight relationships is itself a moral value.** But it all breaks down to individual _people_, doesn’t it? And if one person has a “right” then so does another and what conceivable difference does it make where/who/or what their relationships lie with. I don’t see how anything is any more relative than whether or not the PERSON holds the same value as any other person. I mean, if you take the relationship angle out of the equation, it would be the same as saying male is equal to female, black to white, blond to brunette, but your relationships somehow cancel all that out. How can you take away a basic tenet of the individual when you add the relationship aspect back in? Isn’t that contradictory? I mean, why not just say that _certain_ people are inherently unequal then to begin with. (And no, **Captain** , I’m not trying to pick on you. Asking in the general sense, is all.) I hope that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/45 "2003-07-28T19:54:11Z")
> [@](#): > > _Captain Amazing:_ > If someone’s spouse is entitled to their spouse’s old age benefits on that spouse’s death, as is the case in the US with Social Security, the state, and every single one of us, indirectly through our taxes, would have to pay benefits to the surviving gay spouse. Because gay people don’t pay taxes.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/46 "2003-07-28T20:01:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _Happy Lendervender_ > Large organizations try and tell politicians how to vote every fucking day of the year. Unions, big tobacco, corporations, NRA, NOW, ACLU, NAACP, and, yes, religious organizations. Some of these organizations that lobby Congress hold positions I don’t argree with. Sometimes politicians listen to those lobbyists and vote for something I don’t agree with. Whoop-de-doo. There’s a difference between lobbying for something I disagree with and lobbying for institutionalized bigotry. I disagree with the NRA over how easy it should be to buy a handgun, but I don’t think the NRA is immoral because of the difference. Lobbying to protect the second-class citizenship of a large segment of the population isn’t the sort of issue I can “agree to disagree with,” however. It’s reprehensible, and should be treated as such. However, this _is_ the Pope we’re talking about here. He’s three hundred and fifty years old and is the closest thing God has to a best friend. Either one of those alone would be enough to unhinge most people, so I have to give the Pope at least a little credit for holding it together this long. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/47 "2003-07-28T20:09:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EJsGirl \* > **Enlightening.** My pastor ribs a gay couple in the congregation for living in sin because they haven’t been through a commitment ceremony. Things are changing. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/48 "2003-07-28T20:44:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrightNShiny \* > \*\*Because gay people don’t pay taxes.:rolleyes: \*\* Gay people are part of the “every single one of us” I mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/49 "2003-07-28T20:53:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > **If someone’s spouse is entitled to their spouse’s old age benefits on that spouse’s death, as is the case in the US with Social Security, the state, and every single one of us, indirectly through our taxes, would have to pay benefits to the surviving gay spouse.** And why would that be a bad thing? Why shouldn’t a gay spouse be as equally entitled to the same benefits as a straight spouse? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/50 "2003-07-28T21:01:01Z")
> [@](#): > > And the Pope should concern himself only with Catholics. Just like the NRA should only concern themselves with gun owners, NOW should only concern themselves with women, the AFL-CIO should only concern itself with union members, the AARP should only concern itself with old people, Phillip-Morris should only concern itself with tobacco farmers and smokers… My point is, everyone has an agenda to push, even the Catholic church. The Pope isn’t telling non-Catholic politicians how to vote. “But,” I hear the argument being cast, “the Pope’s trying to force non-Catholics to live their lives according to Catholic beliefs.” Well, there are hundreds of organizations in Washington (and in the capitals of other countires) trying to force us to live our lives according to their own beliefs. A) That doesn’t mean the politicians will listen to the lobbying organization when it comes to voting on legislation, and B) even if they do (and you disagree), you can always work to vote them out of office. **Miller** : I see what you’re saying, but… **Eve** ’s OP said she wasn’t surprised that the Pope took a stance against gay marriage, ergo her rant wasn’t so much about that. Her ire was more directed at the fact that the Pope was trying to force his beliefs on non-Catholics. And so, my arguement was: you may hate, loathe, despise and froth at the mouth over what he’s saying, but just because he’s lobbying a loathesome opinion, it doesn’t mean he’s trying to force his beliefs upon non-Catholics _any more or less_ than NRA lobbyists are trying to force their beliefs on non-gun owners. I don’t care how loathesome (or popular) an opinion is, the lobbyist (whomever he works for) is trying their darndest to force that opinion upon society as a whole. And if the politicians decide enough times to side with the “unpopular” opinions of lobbyists, then the electorate will (or should) vote them out. > [@](#): > > _From the OP_ > But could he please leave the rest of us non-Catholics in peace to decide what’s right for us? The Pope isn’t passing any legislation. He’s giving his opinion (no matter how loathesome you may find it) to those who do pass legislation. That is all. They may take it or leave it, just as they may take or leave _any_ opinion given to them. You (generically speaking, not directed at anyone in particular)don’t agree with the Pope? No one’s forcing you to be Catholic. You don’t agree with your legislator’s voting record? No one’s forcing you to vote for him or her. And the Pope can’t force _unwanted_ changes to society-as-a-whole any more than the NRA or the UAW can. _EVERYONE_ on Capitol Hill, in the White House, or with a big enough soap box has been since Day One, is currently, and will keep on trying to force their own personal beliefs on everyone else. I am not justifying or agreeing with the content of the Pope’s memo. Please don’t take my arguement here as such. Happy ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/51 "2003-07-28T21:01:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hopefool \* > \*\*But it all breaks down to individual _people_, doesn’t it? \*\* Well, it breaks down to individual behavior. The Catholic Church says that homosexual sex is wrong, in itself, while heterosexual sex is not wrong, in itself. It also says that state recognition of marriage will encourage commission of the sexual act. Now, in the case of heterosexual marriage, that’s not a problem from the Catholic Church’s perspective. But, in the Catholic Church’s eyes, if a state recognizes homosexual marriage, it will encourage commission of and legitimize an immoral act, and that’s a problem, because the state has a responsibility not to encourage immorality. Of course, you might disagree with any of these positions, but they’re all value statements…none of them are statements of fact (with the exception of the statement that state recognition of marriage will encourage commission of the sexual act). ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/52 "2003-07-28T21:11:25Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Captain Amazing_ > > \*\*Well, it breaks down to individual behavior. The Catholic Church says that homosexual sex is wrong, in itself, while heterosexual sex is not wrong, in itself. It also says that state recognition of marriage will encourage commission of the sexual act. Now, in the case of heterosexual marriage, that’s not a problem from the Catholic Church’s perspective. But, in the Catholic Church’s eyes, if a state recognizes homosexual marriage, it will encourage commission of and legitimize an immoral act, and that’s a problem, because the state has a responsibility not to encourage immorality. > > Of course, you might disagree with any of these positions, but they’re all value statements…none of them are statements of fact (with the exception of the statement that state recognition of marriage will encourage commission of the sexual act). \*\* Are you Catholic and therefore endorse this position? Or do you take a different stance from this as a human rights issue = value statement? Thank you for answering so politely. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/53 "2003-07-28T21:12:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by coffeecat \* > \*\*Yeah, those uniforms are pretty hot, huh? \*\* _snort_ Yeah right. Try fugly. I went to Catholic school, and I wore a uniform. The Catholic school girl uniforms of fantasies wouldn’t be allowed. The plaid skirts are usually made of this cheap, shiny, itchy, stiff, scratchy polyestor, and the plaid is usually really ugly. Then the blouses were prissy, with the big rounded collars, and the cardigans, blech. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/54 "2003-07-28T21:21:49Z")
On a related issue: “I am mad at the Pope! The Pope says he does not want my brothers and sisters to use condoms! Well, what the fuck has he got on his head?” - Judy Tenuta ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/55 "2003-07-28T21:22:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hopefool \* > \*\*Are you Catholic and therefore endorse this position? Or do you take a different stance from this as a human rights issue = value statement? Thank you for answering so politely. \*\* I’m not Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/56 "2003-07-28T21:24:55Z")
Whooooops! Me, not Hamish. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/57 "2003-07-28T21:29:59Z")
The fuck? I swear, I logged out first. And it is _still_ not Hamish. _Cleanup in aisle 5… crumbled cookies, cleanup in aisle 5…_ ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/58 "2003-07-28T21:31:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamish \* > \*\*Whooooops! Me, not Hamish. \*\* That works better if you actually change the user name before apologizing for forgetting to change the user name the first time. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/59 "2003-07-28T21:31:55Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Captain Amazing_ > > **I’m not Catholic.** Does that mean then, that your “value statement” finds gay people to be inherently unequal to straight people? Please, correct me if I’m misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/60 "2003-07-28T21:37:20Z")
One sad thing is that the Vatican’s teachings on sex is the one thing that drove me away from Catholicism. Birth control, premarital sex, homosexuality, masturbation, sex ed-all that. If they stopped being so fucking uptight about it, I’d go back to Catholicism faster than you can say Hail Mary, Full of Grace. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440.md?page=4)