# Ooooh, You Mean Ol' Pope, You! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440 "2003-07-28T14:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/61 "2003-07-28T21:39:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hopefool \* > \*\*Does that mean then, that your “value statement” finds gay people to be inherently unequal to straight people? Please, correct me if I’m misunderstanding. \*\* No, you are incorrect. In fact, I’m gay, myself. I think that gay and straight people should be equal under the law. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/62 "2003-07-28T22:55:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > One sad thing is that the Vatican’s teachings on sex is the one thing that drove me away from Catholicism. Birth control, premarital sex, homosexuality, masturbation, sex ed-all that. Add The Marian Doctrines, infallibility, in persona Christi, Jesus as a continuation of the blood line of David and a handful of other things and you’ve basically got one reason I left, too;) ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/63 "2003-07-28T23:02:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Captain Amazing_ > > **No, you are incorrect. In fact, I’m gay, myself. I think that gay and straight people should be equal under the law.** Thank you so much for clarifying. However, I’m either without too much sleep today or I’m unbelievably denser than usual, but I don’t think I was grasping what points you were trying to make earlier then. Can you help me out so I won’t feel so lost? Or at least, not more than usual. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/64 "2003-07-28T23:11:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > \*\*Add The Marian Doctrines, infallibility, in persona Christi, Jesus as a continuation of the blood line of David and a handful of other things and you’ve basically got one reason I left, too;) \*\* Yep, and the whole married/women priests thing. Although that’s kinda connected to their views on sex. See, in everything else, though, really, Catholicism is really enlightened-science, education, social justice, etc. It’s such a pity. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/65 "2003-07-28T23:45:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > **Well, it breaks down to individual behavior. The Catholic Church says that homosexual sex is wrong, in itself, while heterosexual sex is not wrong, in itself. It also says that state recognition of marriage will encourage commission of the sexual act. Now, in the case of heterosexual marriage, that’s not a problem from the Catholic Church’s perspective. But, in the Catholic Church’s eyes, if a state recognizes homosexual marriage, it will encourage commission of and legitimize an immoral act, and that’s a problem, because the state has a responsibility not to encourage immorality.** Well, using the same arguments, there should be an encyclical encouraging Catholic legislators the world over to pass laws against remarriage following divorce. Is there such an encyclical? ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/66 "2003-07-29T01:10:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > \*\*Hey im not catholic but i agree that homosexuality is wrong. 🙂 \*\* Thank you, Sparky. Now would you like a cookie, or should we just pet you on your head and send you out to play in the sandbox? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/67 "2003-07-29T01:23:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kaylasdad99 \* > \*\*Well, using the same arguments, there should be an encyclical encouraging Catholic legislators the world over to pass laws against remarriage following divorce. > > Is there such an encyclical? \*\* I think it comes down to what the church can pull off vs. a lost cause. There is no chance that the church can change anything about divorce now, OTOH, they might still have an effect on the gay marriage thing. If they could change divorce laws, I have no doubt that they’d go ahead and do it. In today’s environment, though, they’d just look stupid(er) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/68 "2003-07-29T01:39:53Z")
In other words, they’ll bully those they can bully and leave the kids who can hurt them back alone… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/69 "2003-07-29T01:43:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*. . . and them trying to force their values onto us by affecting the laws. \*\* And you trying to force yours on us by the same process. It’s called the democratic process, at least in America. You do it, they do it, I do it. And we all complain about how unfair it is when the other guy does it. Some more than others. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/70 "2003-07-29T01:44:57Z")
You know, I still think this whole problem could be solved if someone would just go up to the Pope and shake their finger in his face and go, “oh, you g’wan, you old _Pope_, you!” I’ll bet no one’s ever _done_ that. and it’s probably just what he needs to take him down a peg or two. [Omigod, I am channeling Charlene from _Designing Women_. That’s what I get for watching too much Lifetime.] ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/71 "2003-07-29T01:49:26Z")
Nothing particularly unexpected in here, except for the Papal bitching that “the church’s message was being watered down in Europe.” For some reason, I had images of my mom whining over a cup of tea. Except with the beehive crown. It was highly amusing, and has kept me entertained all day. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/72 "2003-07-29T02:01:03Z")
Gosh, **Shodan** , it’s such a nice change to be butting heads with you instead of **Libertarian**. She usually follows me into religious threads and humps my leg like a little puppydawg . . . ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/73 "2003-07-29T02:01:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*No, you are incorrect. In fact, I’m gay, myself. I think that gay and straight people should be equal under the law. \*\* Andrew? Andrew Sullivan? Is this the first time you’ve outed yourself on the board? I’m shocked to find that out since you seem to be such an apologist for the Southern Baptists and other Evangelical Christians, Strom Thurmond and the school admins who kicked the girl out of school for the Barbie is a Lesbian t-shirt. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/74 "2003-07-29T02:02:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > \*\*I think it comes down to what the church can pull off vs. a lost cause. There is no chance that the church can change anything about divorce now, OTOH, they might still have an effect on the gay marriage thing. If they could change divorce laws, I have no doubt that they’d go ahead and do it. In today’s environment, though, they’d just look stupid(er) \*\* This appeal to pragmatism, while almost certainly reflective of the true approach of the Church, does nothing to address the weakness behind the principled stance posited in **Captain Amazing’s** post. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Eve_ > **You know, I still think this whole problem could be solved if someone would just go up to the Pope and shake their finger in his face and go, “oh, you g’wan, you old Pope, you!” I’ll bet no one’s ever done that. and it’s probably just what he needs to take him down a peg or two.** Yeah, too bad Kate Hepburn left us. She could have really carried it off. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/75 "2003-07-29T02:12:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*Andrew? Andrew Sullivan? \*\* Be kind to Mr. Sullivan. For all he may hold near-contradictory views, he has not been hesitant to slam those who probably require it (including Catholicism, his own religion). And he provides a pretty decent gadfly to the gay rights movement, which is nice. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/76 "2003-07-29T02:48:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*And you trying to force yours on us by the same process. > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* Spoiler box contains overheated profanity in rant form. That is Goddamned bullshit and you mutherfuckers know it. Noone FUCKING READING AGAIN YOU DUMB SHIT. NO ONE IS TRYING TO MAKE YOU QUEER. Asshole. We fucking don’t want your skanky ass. What we are doing is defending our own INALIENABLE FUCKING RIGHTS. We’re supposed to start with the assumption that we’re FREE in this society. You have to show why it’s in Society’s interest to limit freedom, otherwise it’s the default postion. Allowing Gay people the right to marry harms noone and therefore the prohibition is unjustified. We’re not limiting your freedom in any way. We’re not compelling you to do anything. We’re not even forcing you to approve anything. We’re just fighting your coersive misuse of government to support your religious viewpoint. Some day, hopefully soon, the courts will acknowledge that. > [@](#): > > \*\* Just like the NRA should only concern themselves with gun owners, NOW should only concern themselves with women, the AFL-CIO should only concern itself with union members, the AARP should only concern itself with old people, Phillip-Morris should only concern itself with tobacco farmers and smokers… > > My point is, everyone has an agenda to push, even the Catholic church. > \*\* I’ll buy the NRA comparison to the Gay Rights issue in the sense they are fighting for what they consider Constitutional Rights, as we do. However, forcing your religion as social policy is actually against the Bill of Rights. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/77 "2003-07-29T03:22:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*Is this the first time you’ve outed yourself on the board? I’m shocked to find that out since you seem to be such an apologist for the Southern Baptists and other Evangelical Christians, Strom Thurmond and the school admins who kicked the girl out of school for the Barbie is a Lesbian t-shirt. \*\* I’ve been out on these boards for about a year and a half now. I don’t have any posts I can link to right now to show you, but could find them for you if you’d like. As for the points you’ve raised, I don’t think I’m an apologist for Evangelical Christianity, but I do think people are too eager to condemn it without trying to understand it. There seems to be a tendency to dismiss the movement out of hand as evil, when in fact, Evangelicals tend to be well meaning, and they sometimes have valid concerns. And I think, generally, dialogue with evangelicals is more constructive, and has a better chance of changing their minds, than just shouting them down. And I do have some sympathy for the “liberal” wing of the Southern Baptists, who were, and still are, if not pro-gay, at least not particularly anti-gay. and who were a mainstream southern denomination that valued free thought and religious freedom. Unfortunately, they’re no longer in control of the Convention, and the current Southern Baptist faction is a bunch of intolerant fucknuggets, who I don’t have any respect for at all. I also don’t think I’ve ever said anything positive about Strom Thurmond on this board, and I know I’ve said a lot of negative things about him in real life. I think he was an amoral weasel, who embraced segregation when it was politically popular in South Carolina, and then, when the Civil Rights Act passed and blacks gained political power, in the words of Lyndon Johnson, “kissed all the black ass he could find.” And, I have no doubt that, if gay people ever had become politically important in South Carolina, Thurmond would have french kissed Bruce Vilanch. However, I do think it’s in bad taste to publicly rejoice at someone’s death, no matter how much you hate the bastard. It just seems uncivilized to me. And I agree with the decision of the school administration not to let the girl wear the Barbie t-shirt. The shirt was disruptive and intended to be disruptive, and I think teachers have enough of a problem maintaining discipline and teaching without things like that T-shirt making it harder. However, none of this changes the fact that I am gay, and support gay rights and gay marriage. and, in spite of my general poverty, donate to the HRC when I get the chance and have saved a couple of bucks. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/78 "2003-07-29T03:28:42Z")
I did consider asking for a Cite? before … 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/79 "2003-07-29T03:36:40Z")
I did consider asking for a Cite? before … 😉 ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440/80 "2003-07-29T03:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > Yep, and the whole married/women priests thing. Although that’s kinda connected to their views on sex. Yup! Other than all the things I/we disagree with them on, they’re really not that bad;) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooooh-you-mean-ol-pope-you/191440.md?page=5)