# Ooops! Can a Presidential Pardon Be Rescinded? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604 "2008-12-24T23:33:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/1 "2008-12-24T23:33:07Z")
> [@](#): > > (CNN) – President George W. Bush on Wednesday ordered one of 19 presidential pardons granted earlier in the week to be re-examined before making a final decision. The pardon was for Isaac R. Toussie, a 36-year-old New York developer who pleaded guilty in 2001 to making false statements in a Long Island mortgage fraud scheme. Toussie and his father, also a developer, had previously been accused of conspiring with lenders and others to build and sell substandard homes – a charge they denied. > > According to a senior Bush administration official, the White House learned new information about Toussie’s case Tuesday night – only hours after announcing his pardon. Source: [Bush orders pardon re-examined - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/24/bush.pardon.reexamined/index.html) According to the news article, _technically_ the pardon process has not been completed. At the same time, what does this say about the vetting process the current president is using? Say Bush issues another set of pardons in the days immediately before his term expires. What if a pardon process is not yet complete by the time Bush leaves office? Could Obama recind one of those as well? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/2 "2008-12-24T23:40:46Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Say Bush issues another set of pardons in the days immediately before his term expires. What if a pardon process is not yet complete by the time Bush leaves office? Could Obama recind one of those as well? Ah yes the old Marbury v. Madison conundrum… ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/3 "2008-12-24T23:41:32Z")
“Based on the intelligence we had at the time…” That’s an awfully familiar refrain for this administration. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/4 "2008-12-25T00:56:22Z")
Missing something here. What “new information” are they referring to? Is that somewhere revealed? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/5 "2008-12-25T01:04:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Missing something here. What “new information” are they referring to? Is that somewhere revealed? Perhaps it is the “appearance of impropriety” raised by papa Toussie’s $28,500 “donation” to the RNC? [here](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gNbZJtwBki4XVeyI-6zGGYgDJZBAD959DLU80) ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/6 "2008-12-25T01:05:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Missing something here. What “new information” are they referring to? Is that somewhere revealed? It’s probably that someone just pointed out that the people might not be in a receptive mood to the pardon of a fat cat mortgage defrauder who managed to fuck up so bad in and already deregulated anything goes economic system that bush is largely responsible for. It was probably a courtesy heads up by somebody in the Obama administration because god knows nobody in Bush’s is perceptive enough to pick up on these subtle nuances… ETA: Or what Squink said, that’s more plausible anyway… ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/7 "2008-12-25T01:20:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Missing something here. What “new information” are they referring to? Is that somewhere revealed? I’m sorry, that’s an issue of national security. My guess would be that the check bounced. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/8 "2008-12-25T01:50:03Z")
28 grand? Dunno what the going rate is, but that seems a mite low for a pardon. Did he get it on E-bay? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/9 "2008-12-25T02:03:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > 28 grand? Dunno what the going rate is, but that seems a mite low for a pardon. Did he get it on E-bay? Traded it for a used airplane, I hear tell. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/10 "2008-12-25T02:07:17Z")
As to how you get yourself in position to get a pardon, > [@](#): > > Bradford Berenson, an associate White House counsel during Bush’s first term and Isaac Toussie’s lawyer, said in a statement that his client remained confident the pardon attorney would grant his request. . ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/11 "2008-12-25T04:34:11Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Perhaps it is the “appearance of impropriety” raised by papa Toussie’s $28,500 “donation” to the RNC? > > [here](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gNbZJtwBki4XVeyI-6zGGYgDJZBAD959DLU80) Wow. Since when is the Bush administration concerned about the appearance of impropriety? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/12 "2008-12-25T04:45:19Z")
Yeah, and 28K ain’t squat to the Bushes and the Prescotts. Find that much chump change in the sofa. They got whole clubs of guys called “Pioneers” or “Frontiersman” or “Goat Fletchers”, guys who personally raise 100K, 250K, and so on and so forth. So if there is perfidy afoot, and I’m inclined to believe it, it’s likely not about the money. There’s a lot of this hitting the ol’ blechosphere. I recommend [http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/249420.php](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/249420.php) for a briefing. (Lefty site, tighty righties should observe contamination protocols…) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/13 "2008-12-25T05:09:00Z")
As well, with more about Berenson: [http://thinkprogress.org/2008/12/24/berenson-toussie/](http://thinkprogress.org/2008/12/24/berenson-toussie/) (Same advisory applies…) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/14 "2008-12-25T05:20:56Z")
Still, isn’t it nice to see them fuck something up that doesn’t get anybody killed? Refreshing, even a little whimsical. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/15 "2008-12-25T05:31:19Z")
Luckily Bush thought ahead. If it turns out that he let the guy go when he shouldn’t have, all he has to do is label him an enemy combatant and he can keep him locked up for however long he likes! ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/16 "2008-12-25T05:37:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Still, isn’t it nice to see them fuck something up that doesn’t get anybody killed? Refreshing, even a little whimsical. Yet. Nobody has been killed yet. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/17 "2008-12-25T05:39:11Z")
Grinch. ---
**Author:** ![drewbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drewbert/32/15890_2.png) [@drewbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewbert)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/18 "2008-12-25T07:29:47Z")
> [@NicePete](#): > > Wow. Since when is the Bush administration concerned about the appearance of impropriety? Yeah, and since when did they ever ‘make mistakes’? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/19 "2008-12-25T13:28:42Z")
Maybe the check bounced. Anyway, if I was the lawyer for the unpardoned guy, I’d be looking for ways to make it stick. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604/20 "2008-12-25T14:55:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Grinch. I’d say he is more an optimist than a Grinch… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ooops-can-a-presidential-pardon-be-rescinded/478604.md?page=2)