# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/361 "2013-10-31T18:54:28Z")
IMHO, the current system is unsustainable. The ACA will also prove to be unsustainable for the reasons I detailed a few pages back. Of course the juries still out… ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/362 "2013-10-31T18:54:34Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Yes it is, because the crappy insurance policies cost everyone and hurt society as a whole. > > A persons tax decisions only affect them. > > Either way I never referred to a large percentage of people in America as fools. The ACA program is basically referring to a large % of the people in America as fools ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/363 "2013-10-31T18:56:34Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > So we’ve come full cycle it would seem. > > People aren’t allowed to make poor choices when it comes to bare-bones insurance, but when it comes to making foolish decisions regarding your personal tax deductions, somehow that’s entirely different :rolleyes: One decision affects only that person. The other harms others and the country as a whole. You must have missed my previous post on this where I clearly spelled this out. Let me repeat myself: “People should be able to make all of the bad decisions that they want, when the result of those decisions falls only on the decision maker themselves, and not on the rest of society. If your bad decision harms others, or society at large, then no you should not be allowed to make that bad decision without some consequences.” :rolleyes: indeed … Try reading the thread a little more carefully before your next gotcha ya attempt. It may have a chance to hit the mark rather than fall harmlessly at your feet. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/364 "2013-10-31T18:58:41Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > The ACA program is basically referring to a large % of the people in America as fools Which page is that on? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/365 "2013-10-31T19:00:49Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > One decision affects only that person. The other harms others and the country as a whole. > > You must have missed my previous post on this where I clearly spelled this out. Let me repeat myself: > > “People should be able to make all of the bad decisions that they want, when the result of those decisions falls only on the decision maker themselves, and not on the rest of society. If your bad decision harms others, or society at large, then no you should not be allowed to make that bad decision without some consequences.” > > :rolleyes: indeed … > > Try reading the thread a little more carefully before your next gotcha ya attempt. It may have a chance to hit the mark rather than fall harmlessly at your feet. think of the benefit all that interest income would have in the economy, if only people would make smart decisions when it comes to their personal tax deductions instead of giving the government free loans for a year at a time. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/366 "2013-10-31T19:04:14Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > think of the benefit all that interest income would have in the economy, if only people would make smart decisions when it comes to their personal tax deductions instead of giving the government free loans for a year at a time. Are you advocating a law to force everyone to adopt the exact same investment strategy as you? Am I asking you for money due to my decision making? Thought not. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/367 "2013-10-31T19:06:56Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Are you advocating a law to force everyone to adopt the exact same investment strategy as you? > > Am I asking you for money due to my decision making? > > Thought not. If all those that give the Government a free loan yearly instead of making investments on their own are having a negative impact on the economy, as compared to what it could be, then perhaps you are. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/368 "2013-10-31T19:11:05Z")
What do you think _the government_ is doing with all that interest income? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/369 "2013-10-31T19:31:56Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > If all those that give the Government a free loan yearly instead of making investments on their own are having a negative impact on the economy, as compared to what it could be, then perhaps you are. We’re talking about interest here, not the amount of the refund. Interest. Are you seriously suggesting that the enormous increases in cost of healthcare in our society due to the non insured getting ‘free’ treatment is anywhere near the same thing as me not getting every penny of interest I could conceivably get on the amount of my tax refund as it accrues over the course of the year? That these are at all equivalent things? Seriously? Lets review. Do you or do you not think that there are certain bad decisions that a person could make that society should outlaw due to the negative effect those bad decisions have on others and/or society at large? As a concept do you agree with this or not? If not, do you advocate repealing all drunk driving laws in the U.S.? If you do agree with that concept, are you really suggesting that not making the fiscally wisest decision with your tax withholdings rises to this standard? If not, then can we dispense with this ridiculous distraction now? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/370 "2013-10-31T19:57:54Z")
A 5% return per annum for tax refunds would be something like, 0.10% of our GDP. Not a tremendous amount, but not nothing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/371 "2013-10-31T20:33:58Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Actually no, it is ultimately the fault of our broken political system run by morons and extremists, willing to lie to keep people sick and poor, and supported by a gaggle of idiots that will believe the GOP if they tell them water isn’t wet, the sky isn’t blue, and apples fall up > > Here’s the other scenario, in which Obama “tells the truth”. I could imagine him saying this: > > “Because of the ACA, some of you will lose your insurance. That’s ok, because your insurance is crap anyways and it’ll get replaced by better ones. And some of you will have your insurance taken away by your insurance companies, or lied to by Republicans, because they want you to suffer so that you’ll turn against the ACA. Don’t believe them, don’t trust them, and know that even if you’re paying a little more, you’re getting better insurance. I’m sorry if you think you like your current insurance, but the ACA sets standards and I will not allow a subpar insurance plan to continue to exist.” > > That’s the truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Could it be spun by the dumbest GOP operative as Obama taking your insurance, attacking insurance companies, or killing Americans by eliminating their insurance? Easily! And the result may be that less people support the ACA leading to higher deficits and higher insurance costs and tens of millions less covered. All for what? So that the American people can hear something they don’t want to hear and the GOP can have talking points for years? > > Fuck that. > > If you think that Obama lied, then I’ve got news for you: I’m GLAD he did. In this case, the ends completely justifies the means. Tens of millions more insurance, bad plans canceled, lower health care costs, lower deficits and all he had to do was omit part of the whole truth. That’s something I’m glad Obama had the smarts and the guts to do. If I had any control over him doing it over again, I’d tell him to say the exact same thing. Its worth it, its better for all Americans (except those traitors who would keep Americans poor and sick) and better for everyone. Its the equivalent of your mom telling you to eat your vegetables or Santa won’t give you presents: yeah its a lie, but its good for you and ultimately the lie is harmless, so suck it up because you’re too young or dumb to understand if she explains it Gosh. That’s pretty much what GWB’s defenders would say of him. But I doubt it took much “guts” for Obama to say what he did. Quite the opposite. We’ll see if Obamacare is a success or not, but I prefer to not be lied to, especially because the lies aren’t always go to be in your favor. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/372 "2013-10-31T21:40:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Gosh. That’s pretty much what GWB’s defenders would say of him… Why, yes, the parallel is startling! Except, of course, the matter of volume, GeeDub dealt in carload lots. And, of course, the ends to which the lying is employed. About which none here need be reminded. Other than those piddling details… ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/373 "2013-10-31T22:13:07Z")
> [@Really Ate All Those Braiiins](#): > > It’s not a profit margin. It’s a non-care margin. It includes administration and marketing. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OTOH it should also be noted that it’s not a true profit/non-care margin altogether. > > A profit margin for an ordinary business refers to the return on the company’s money. In this case, the margin refers to the percentage of the policyholder’s money which is withheld. You would not expect the latter number to be as high as the former. > > Not that your point is not also valid. Basically, you can’t campare this number to a profit margin, either way. I apologize for using the improper term. Revenue margin. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/374 "2013-10-31T22:37:12Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > What about mortgage interest deductions. > > Also, you just called many many people in America foolish. Just adjust your withholdings to compensate for the mortgage interest deduction. It’s not a hard calculation. Sure many Americans do it NOW, but if they can get out of paying for health insurance and get out of the penalty, they will do it. There will be websites that offer a one page information sheet to calculate what your withholding should be to keep from paying the ACA penalty. Never underestimate the power of Americans to game the system. And like flickster said, take that extra money, put it in a savings account, and get your “refund” at the end of the year. People don’t do it now because its just easier to let the tax man hold your money. But if you find out that he’s going to hold your money and not give it back, people will find other ways. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/375 "2013-10-31T22:48:14Z")
> [@Rotten Sumbitch](#): > > Why, yes, the parallel is startling! Except, of course, the matter of volume, GeeDub dealt in carload lots. Well, you should start a thread about that! > [@](#): > > And, of course, the ends to which the lying is employed. About which none here need be reminded. > > Other than those piddling details… So, the end justifies means? Because I’m not buying that. I’m not even buying that the means were necessary to achieve the end in this case. I don’t want my president to lie to me, unless it is a matter of national security. And even then, I’d prefer he or she said nothing rather than lie. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/376 "2013-10-31T23:14:11Z")
Misleading us into a ghastly and futile war ranks rather high on my outrage chart. YMMV, though God alone knows why. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/377 "2013-10-31T23:26:32Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Isn’t the point of insurance that if a catastrophe happens, everyone else pays for it? No, the point of insurance is to take the same costs you would, on average, pay, smooth it out over time and then tack on 25-30%. If your expected average is higher because you’re a bungee-jumping smoker who works on an oil derrick, so should your end costs. The point is to take your unpredictable cost spikes and smooth it out into a predictable, ongoing fee. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/378 "2013-10-31T23:36:19Z")
> [@Rotten Sumbitch](#): > > Misleading us into a ghastly and futile war ranks rather high on my outrage chart. YMMV, though God alone knows why. We had _dozens_ of threads about that, and I’ve expressed my outrage in them. I feel no need to repeat that here. This thread is about Obama’s statemnts about the ACA. Someone mentioned the end justifies the means. I didn’t buy that when Bush’s apologists used that excuse and I’m not buying it here. Are you saying you think the end justifies the means? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/379 "2013-10-31T23:48:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Gosh. That’s pretty much what GWB’s defenders would say of him. > > But I doubt it took much “guts” for Obama to say what he did. Quite the opposite. We’ll see if Obamacare is a success or not, but I prefer to not be lied to, especially because the lies aren’t always go to be in your favor. GWB: Lied to get us into a war, waste a trillion dollars, kill thousands of Americans, and thousands of Iraqi civilians, all to enrich his oil buddies. Obama: “Lied” to get tens of millions of Americans on health care, save America trillions in the long run, reduce the deficit, and help people Oh yeah, they are exactly the same thing! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/380 "2013-10-31T23:55:41Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > GWB: Lied to get us into a war, waste a trillion dollars, kill thousands of Americans, and thousands of Iraqi civilians, all to enrich his oil buddies. > > Obama: “Lied” to get tens of millions of Americans on health care, save America trillions in the long run, reduce the deficit, and help people > > Oh yeah, they are exactly the same thing! :rolleyes: Oh. So, you do agree that Obama lied. Excellent. That is the point of the thread. For a discussion about GWB, perhaps you can start a new thread, or resurrect one of the 3 or 4 thousand that have been dormant. UNless of course, your thesis is that Obama lied, but it was GWB’s fault. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=20)