# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/421 "2013-11-01T16:36:34Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > GWB: Lied to get us into a war, waste a trillion dollars, kill thousands of Americans, and thousands of Iraqi civilians, all to enrich his oil buddies. > > Obama: “Lied” to get tens of millions of Americans on health care, save America trillions in the long run, reduce the deficit, and help people > > Oh yeah, they are exactly the same thing! :rolleyes: I’ll see your :rolleyes: and raise you a :smack:. At least it’s good to know that Kool Aid comes in more than one flavor… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/422 "2013-11-01T16:53:47Z")
So does bullshit. Have you a point? Something you would like to share with the group? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/423 "2013-11-01T17:02:48Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I assume that a lot of people don’t dig down and do their own research when it comes to laws and policy debates. So, they depend either on talking heads on the TV news, or on politicians, to tell them “what does this mean to me?” (if they care at all). > > So, IMO, the reason “it matters” in regards to the Presidents mis-statements is: If he was incorrect about “a”, is he also wrong about claim “b”? > > The President made several promises about the ACA. One was that you get to keep your plan and your doctor. For that, it appears he earned Four Pinochios. > > He also said it would save people/families money on their premiums. He also said the program would help reduce the Federal deficit. So… it’s natural to start to wonder if these promises will also hold true. It was obvious at the time Obama made his statements that they weren’t reality based. Anyone that hasn’t realized that yet wasn’t paying attention - what difference will it make if they don’t pay attention some more? Save money on premiums? Yeah - for those that get subsidies. Everyone else will be funding those subsidies. Reduce the deficit? That was a joke right? Even in the off chance that there is overall deficit reduction, it would be difficult to measure and be quickly squandered on another shiny object. There was no way that people were going to cumulatively get more services and pay less at the same time. There just wasn’t enough cost reduction efforts included, either through innovation or efficiency. From the get go this was going to cost a ton. I think he either lied, or deliberately mislead. Now what? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/424 "2013-11-01T17:11:09Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > Can there never be an intersection between helping people and incentivizing certain financial behaviors? For the purposes of this thread, this is irrelevant. The President said if YOU (the general you) want to keep YOUR plan, you can keep it. He didn’t say that you could keep your plan if the government, in good faith, after considering the well being of others and your own financial benefit, liked your plan you could keep it. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/425 "2013-11-01T17:48:19Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think he either lied, or deliberately mislead. Now what? So now, whenever he comes out pushing some other issue, like say Immigration Reform, I will have a harder time taking him at his word on the pro’s and con’s of his proposal. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/426 "2013-11-01T17:49:36Z")
If one’s plan was to not have carry any health insurance at all, does one get to complain that he had been lied to about being able to “keep it”? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/427 "2013-11-01T17:50:27Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > So now, whenever he comes out pushing some other issue, like say Immigration Reform, I will have a harder time taking him at his word on the pro’s and con’s of his proposal. I thought this was SOP for all politicians. You know, because they are assholes? In all seriousness, who believes what they have to say anyways? Politicians are liars isn’t exactly a novel idea. This isn’t a revelation of any kind - and my views towards Obama, the ACA, and politicians in general is no different today than it was before. Can you say your opinion is substantively different now? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/428 "2013-11-01T17:53:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think he either lied, or deliberately mislead. Now what? Well now that I know he’s a liar, like Fox News, I’m not going to believe anything he says from now on. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/429 "2013-11-01T18:43:08Z")
No doubt, that will be a serious shock, but you may find a way to adjust. Obamanon has a one step program you may find helpful. Step one: Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/430 "2013-11-01T19:35:54Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I thought this was SOP for all politicians. You know, because they are assholes? In all seriousness, who believes what they have to say anyways? Politicians are liars isn’t exactly a novel idea. This isn’t a revelation of any kind - and my views towards Obama, the ACA, and politicians in general is no different today than it was before. Can you say your opinion is substantively different now? Not mine no. But there were some who were still holding out the belief that this guy might have been different. Or as a friend of mine said last night: “That whole ‘change you can believe in’ in now completely dead to me now.” For her, and others I’d presume, your excuse that “of course he was lying, you were naive to believe otherwise” is still a kick in the head. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/431 "2013-11-01T20:44:35Z")
> **[Obamacare's Winners and 'losers'](https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/obamacares-winners-and-losers-msna201416)** > > The hair-on-fire coverage about Americans "losing" their current health plans has been exaggerated to levels that clearly mislead the public. The linked article describes an estimate from an MIT economist that indicates that the percentage of people who will have to pay more for a similar plan to that they already have is about 3%, which as you may be recall is well below my criterion level of 15% to giving a fuck about this “lie.” ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/432 "2013-11-01T20:57:16Z")
15% is an odd figure to choose. With a rough estimate of 315M people in the country, and a prior year estimate of ~50M people uninsured, that comes in at just under 16% estimated uninsured. So if the amount of uninsured people were slightly less, would you also not give a fuck about the fact they have no insurance? I know - the analogy is a stretch but the math seemed to work out so I went with it. That 3% is still around 9M people. Something that detrimentally effects 9M people in the country is surely newsworthy. Here’s the message I’m getting from people defending Obama: [ul] [li]Lying is okay, as long as it’s for something you agree with[/li][li]As long as less than 50M people are affected, who gives a fuck[/li][li]The ends justify the means[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/433 "2013-11-01T21:30:52Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > That ship has sailed long before now. Once the ACA was blessed by SCOTUS, the law can pretty much force you to buy anything. Arguing against that power is fruitless. And, according to some here, lying to get to this result would be perfectly acceptable (if in fact it was a lie). One part of the ACA has been “blessed” by the SCOTUS, and another part was voided. There is still plenty of fruit left on the vine to be picked over: [Appeals court swipes contraceptive mandate, likely headed to Supreme Court](http://news.yahoo.com/appeals-court-strikes-down-contraceptive-mandate--likely-headed-to-supreme-court-191012577.html). > [@Yogsosoth](#): > > Just saying its a strawman doesn’t make it so. Its absolute irrefutable evidence that GWB indirectly killed that much Americans with his stupid political blunder… Then you can quote where I said Bush’s war was not “stupid” or that people were not killed needlessly. If not -\> straw. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/434 "2013-11-01T23:00:47Z")
[quote] As long as less than 50M people are affected, who gives a … [/quote ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/435 "2013-11-01T23:06:36Z")
C’mon, **John** , you’re not stupid! Sure, OK, in the abstract philosophy so dear to dorm room debates fueled by bad pizza and worse beer, sure, a lie is a lie and all liars are liars, and in that sense, all the same. And it makes no difference whether the lies result in the death of one hundred thousand innocent people, or the lies result in health care for our people, because the ends don’t justify the means. You gotta be kidding. You couldn’t sell that to a kindergartner dining on library paste. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/436 "2013-11-01T23:08:33Z")
(Sorry about the previous post. Damn, I hate posting from mobile…) > [@](#): > > As long as less than 50M people are affected, who gives a … Insurance companies…hell, a lot of private enterprises…have been doing this for decades, and they’ve been a lot less discerning about how many people they screw over. And these people are going to be eligible for **better** insurance, most likely at **lower** prices. Sorry, but my “give a rat’s ass” is broken today. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/437 "2013-11-01T23:13:21Z")
“Obama LIED to me! He said I could keep this piece of absolute shit insurance policy that I spend at least 3 days cursing out loud and long if I have to actually use it somehow and now they took my piece of absolute shit insurance policy away and it’s all Obama’s fault!” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/438 "2013-11-01T23:20:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > C’mon, **John** , you’re not stupid! > > Sure, OK, in the abstract philosophy so dear to dorm room debates fueled by bad pizza and worse beer, sure, a lie is a lie and all liars are liars, and in that sense, all the same. And it makes no difference whether the lies result in the death of one hundred thousand innocent people, or the lies result in health care for our people, because the ends don’t justify the means. > > You gotta be kidding. You couldn’t sell that to a kindergartner dining on library paste. Please read post 384. Just to be clear: Bush was a terrible president who got us into a needless war that cost many lives and much dinero. Obama lied about the ACA, and that’s mice nuts in comparison. OK? Now, I still reject the idea that the end justifies the means. I reject it because I don’t want to live in a society where everyone operates under that principle. There lies the danger of another Iraq war, since I’m sure Bush thought he was serving the greater good, too. I don’t think he sat in the WH, rubbing his hands together and cackling over the success of his evil plot to destroy the world. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/439 "2013-11-02T01:10:27Z")
The notion that GWB’s performance on Iraq supplies political cover for Obama here is quite impressively far-fetched. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/440 "2013-11-02T03:36:38Z")
He lied, but it was for your own good. Let’s see what the voters have to say next year. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=23)