# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/461 "2013-11-02T16:06:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This explains all the lies about the effects of Voter ID. Opponents are perfectly willing to lie, to claim people will be disenfranchised, in order to get legislation defeated they just KNOW is bad for the country. Not really. In this particular case, the “lie” was easily understood to be just that. Did anyone who actually thought about it seriously think that if the government institutes new minimum standards, that no one would lose their existing plan? It’s more that no one really made much of a big deal about it. Now, it’s a bit harder to prove the effect of voter ID laws, but not impossible. Look at what the data tells us to determine the lie. Having said that, anyone who advocates that lying by the president is OK as long as it is for a good cause, is easily dismissed if he can’t provide evidence that, on a given issue, the president is not lying. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/462 "2013-11-02T16:13:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How about insurance that doesn’t ensure much of anything but an opportunity to play Wheel of Coverage? Spin carefully, don’t hit “Bankrupt”. Or “Dead.” How many of us here personally knows somebody who has gotten a jolly good rodgering from their insurance “provider”? I know several myself. How about you? > > What kind of humanity is reflected in paying out handsome bonuses to people who figure out new and creative ways to deny legitimate claims? This is the sort of thing we admire, we hope only to be so lucky as to raise our children to screw their fellow citizens so they can afford _more_ loud shiny crap? Anybody here think its remotely rational to pay $20 for a Tylenol in the hospital that you can get at the Dollar Store for 3 cents? Someone tell me why that makes sense. How does ACA make the cost of hospital Tylenol go down? And what cite can you provide that most of the policies being cancelled because of ACA provide terrible coverage? I’ll concede that the cartoon-type coverage you describe sucks. Anything beside anecdotes from the several people you know? Because the news is awash with counter anecdotes from people saying they were perfectly happy with the coverage Obama promised them they’d be able to keep. My own silly notion is that people ought to be able to decide for themselves what constitutes acceptable coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/463 "2013-11-02T16:20:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > In this particular case, the “lie” was easily understood to be just that. Did anyone who actually thought about it seriously think that if the government institutes new minimum standards, that no one would lose their existing plan? It’s more that no one really made much of a big deal about it. “Thought about it seriously” seems like a weaselly caveat to me if that’s become one of the rationales. There are millions of low-info voters who truly believed they’d be able to keep their coverage because the president repeatedly assured them they’d be able to, period. What that says about the depth of their reflection, I don’t know. All this stuff now is nonsense and spin relative to the president’s assurance, which it turns out was utter bullshit for lots of people. I know you’re not defending the president’s election promises, just reacting to the distinction you’re drawing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/464 "2013-11-02T16:25:39Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > “Thought about it seriously” seems like a weaselly caveat to me if that’s become one of the rationales. There are millions of low-info voters who truly believed they’d be able to keep their coverage because the president repeatedly assured them they’d be able to, period. What that says about the depth of their reflection, I don’t know. All this stuff now is nonsense and spin relative to the president’s assurance, which it turns out was utter bullshit for lots of people. > > I know you’re not defending the president’s election promises, just reacting to the distinction you’re drawing. Correct. I don’t expect most people to have to research each and every one of the president’s claims to make sure it is correct. But, the fact is this “lie” was easily detected as such and we shouldn’t just throw up our hands and say: well, we never know when he’s telling the truth or not. If we really want to know, we generally can find out. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/465 "2013-11-02T16:30:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > In this particular case, the “lie” was easily understood to be just that. Did anyone who actually thought about it seriously think that if the government institutes new minimum standards, that no one would lose their existing plan? It’s more that no one really made much of a big deal about it. Is that really remotely near a justification? Yes, I told you X, Y, and Z, but if you had done research or reflected on my words, you would have known I was lying. So it’s your fault that you let me lie to you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/466 "2013-11-02T16:31:09Z")
Here’s an idea: The next time Obama is giving some significant speech, someone should stand up and shout: “You lie!” That’ll show him!! ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/467 "2013-11-02T16:38:56Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So it’s your fault that you let me lie to you. ACA proponents: “You fucked up - you trusted us.” ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/468 "2013-11-02T16:48:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Correct. I don’t expect most people to have to research each and every one of the president’s claims to make sure it is correct. But, the fact is this “lie” was easily detected as such and we shouldn’t just throw up our hands and say: well, we never know when he’s telling the truth or not. If we really want to know, we generally can find out. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/469 "2013-11-02T16:53:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not really. > > In this particular case, the “lie” was easily understood to be just that. Did anyone who actually thought about it seriously think that if the government institutes new minimum standards, that no one would lose their existing plan? It’s more that no one really made much of a big deal about it. That’s what happens when the press act as cheerleaders for the president. The narrative put forth was that this huge change is going to happen, and it’ll be great. But if you are concerned about some of this change interfering with your life and the insurance plan and doctors you currently use and want to keep, worry not! If you have it now it will be protected, grandfathered in. We were told this repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/470 "2013-11-02T16:55:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Correct. I don’t expect most people to have to research each and every one of the president’s claims to make sure it is correct. But, the fact is this “lie” was easily detected as such and we shouldn’t just throw up our hands and say: well, we never know when he’s telling the truth or not. If we really want to know, we generally can find out. And the members of the press are the ones we depend on to do this. They have failed miserably, during his campaigning and presidency. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/471 "2013-11-02T16:57:16Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > ACA proponents: “You fucked up - you trusted us.” 😃 It’s as simple as that. Except maybe should be, “You fucked up - you trusted me.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/472 "2013-11-02T17:18:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And the members of the press are the ones we depend on to do this. They have failed miserably, during his campaigning and presidency. I don’t know about that. The link in post 450 was from 2009. I just don’t think people were paying that much attention. Maybe the opposition party should have been talking about this instead of shutting down the government? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/473 "2013-11-02T17:52:33Z")
> [@theR](#): > > Here is an [AP story](http://www.wbur.org/2009/06/19/obama-health-care-3) from **2009** pointing out the problems with Obama’s statement about keeping old health insurance plans. > > So why is the conservative machine making a big deal now? I have a lot of theories, including special elections and local races, but it doesn’t actually matter that much. What does matter is that maybe if certain pundits or politicians hadn’t been lying about death panels and more, they could have criticized something factual like what Obama said about not losing their plans. > > However, the strategy largely seems to have worked for conservatives. Now when you search Google for Obamacare lies, all the top results are the recent hullaballoo instead of the host of other lies or “not quite true” statements made over the years by those opposed to Obamacare. That was almost a year before the ACA was signed into law. It was talked about some, but people don’t focus on bills much when they’re being debated. They depend on the press to bring the important things to the fore. And that was done very little here. We largely had a press corps who was not only compliant, but complicit. Both they and the administration wanted to move in the same direction, so they both dispensed with serving the American people as well as they should have. As mentioned earlier, the grandfathering language also changed late in the game. and then we had the super-duper rush to pass the final bill before anyone had a chance to read it. What we’re talking about here is what can happen when something of the scale of the ACA is rushed through at the end. When there are changes to a big document like that, and so many parts affect so many other parts, even a well-intenioned improvement in one area can cause problems elsewhere. Also, wouldn’t you say that when the President very publicly and repeatedly makes such a direct and unambiguous claim like he did, that the people assume that if the press is not bringing up any problems, then its probably not problematic. I think one of the things we learned here is that much of today’s press is as partisan as the politicians they’re supposed to be keeping honest. It’s very unhelpful. And as we can see with the coverage in questions, quite dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/474 "2013-11-02T17:56:38Z")
Was this talked about much on FoxNews? Surely they are not giving Obama a pass? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/475 "2013-11-02T18:18:27Z")
Obama’s statement will apparently be correct for about 97% of the people. I’d be perfectly content with some kind of case by case review of people claiming to be in the 3% adversely affected to see whether they deserve some kind of subsidy. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/476 "2013-11-02T18:24:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And they don’t give a rat’s fuck if we live or die. Hell, if they could figure out a way fo us to keep paying them after we settle in for the Dirt Nap, they would do it! You _know_ they would do it. Freedumb. Fuck _that_ shit! Just to be clear, you are saying that since some people make unwise choices, our philosopher-kings should tell everyone how to spend the money we earn? With the exception, presumably, of refraining from telling food stamp recipients that they can’t buy Doritos and Slim Jims? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/477 "2013-11-02T18:34:11Z")
If there are to be words in my mouth, I’d prefer to put them there. Simpy because I don’t say stupid things is no reason to assume I can’t, and offer suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/478 "2013-11-02T18:40:44Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Obama’s statement will apparently be correct for about 97% of the people. > > I’d be perfectly content with some kind of case by case review of people claiming to be in the 3% adversely affected to see whether they deserve some kind of subsidy. **Hentor** , they need this. Throw 'em a bone, what the heck. Piss and moan about how your Golden Idol is tarnished, how you’ll never call him the Messiah again. Not that you ever did, but they’ll never know the difference. They get tired of licking their wounds, let them lick ours for a while… Note: this should not be taken as license to fib about alleged wounds in, ah, strategic zones you like to have licked. That would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/479 "2013-11-02T18:56:47Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > How does ACA make the cost of hospital Tylenol go down?.. Seriously? You don’t know about any of this, you come to argue about something which you have no information regarding? To oversimplify for the sake of brevity, hospital musts provide emergency care whether the patient can pay for it or not. They cover their losses by jacking up prices for people who _can_ pay. But you hadn’t heard about any of this? > [@](#): > > …And what cite can you provide that most of the policies being cancelled because of ACA provide terrible coverage?.. **Hentor** ’s site offers a good starting point. The thing about terrible coverage is you don’t know its terrible until you need it. > [@](#): > > …I’ll concede that the cartoon-type coverage you describe sucks. Anything beside anecdotes from the several people you know? … Didn’t offer any ancecdotes. I asked the reader if they know someone who has been screwed over by their insurance “provider”. I know several, my suspicion is that most people do. And you? Know any? > [@](#): > > …Because the news is awash with counter anecdotes from people saying they were perfectly happy with the coverage Obama promised them they’d be able to keep… Awash, you say! Heavens, that’s quite a lot! But again, the caveat offered above: have they needed to use it? > [@](#): > > …My own silly notion is that people ought to be able to decide for themselves what constitutes acceptable coverage. And so we are compelled to permit someone to offer bad coverage because Freedumb? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/480 "2013-11-02T19:09:51Z")
And people who aren’t smart enough to buy cow meat rather than horse, they got it coming? We regulate used cars, do we not? Even though the shifty used car salesman is a totem of our culture almost as pervasive as the lawyer. If someone wants to sell you a house wherein the central heating hasn’t worked in so long, its become a racoon habitat, they have to tell you that, right? Even though you ought to be smart enough to apply your expertise in heating and ductwork on your own? Are there standards to apply to consumer protection, some point we reach and you cry “Hold! Enough!”. Your insurance company seems to be of the opinion that point is reached when their profit margin is threatened, I disagree. The difference between a “nanny state” and responsible regulation is in the mind of the beholder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=25)