# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/41 "2013-10-29T14:38:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [They then went on to loosen those regulations,](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2010/11/16/171787/grandfather-update/) so that it would be even easier for plans to remain grandfathered. And so you now agree that Obama can alter those regulations? Note that your cite doesn’t really address the main issue here, which is millions of people who buy their insurance individually: > [@](#): > > The new, looser rules will help a relatively small number of employers hang on to their grandfather protections longer… Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/42 "2013-10-29T14:40:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [They then went on to loosen those regulations,](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2010/11/16/171787/grandfather-update/) so that it would be even easier for plans to remain grandfathered. See Post 32. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/43 "2013-10-29T14:42:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Remind me how much authority the president has to draft legislation, order Congress to rewrite bills, or “alter the law to his preferences”. > > What’s that you say? None whatsoever? > > I thought as much. The provision in question was interpreted by HHS to prevent the grandfathering of most plans. Since HHS is a cabinet agency Obama has 100% authority to change the interpretation to allow more plans to be grandfathered. The whole kerfuffle is emblematic of what is wrong with Obamacare. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people are getting kicked off of plans that they were happy with because the ACA deemed those plans not good enough. If they were good enough for the people who bought them, how does the government decide they were not good enough? Does the government care more for people’s health then they do? or is the government listening to special interests who want certain things covered because that is good for business? I think alot of my own intelligence, but I don’t think I am smart enough to tell a complete stranger, whose health, family history, financial situation, and tolerance for risk I do not know which health insurance is best for them. There is an old saying that a fool can put on his coat better than a wise man can do it for him. Unfortunately our superiors in the government think they know better than we do what is good for us and are determined that we get it no matter what the cost. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/44 "2013-10-29T14:42:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The reason they can’t keep the plan is because the company is no longer _offering that plan_. And they are not offering that plan because it doesn’t comply with the regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/45 "2013-10-29T14:44:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And they are not offering that plan because it doesn’t comply with the regulations. It complied with the regulations until they chose to alter it to the degree that it no longer did so. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/46 "2013-10-29T14:46:01Z")
Obama’s defenders here remind me of a Howard Stern phone call back in the OJ days. He had a woman on the phone who was adamant that OJ was innocent. Stern then asked her about specific evidence in the case, and she hand waved away all of it. But he continued with even more “evidence”, simply made up by him that was increasingly impossible to explain away. I think he even got to the point of asking her about the “newest evidence” something like the murder knife found hidden in his sock drawer and increasingly convincing evidence. She would have none of it. Nope. OJ was innocent and the man was trying to set him up. Pretty amazing. Just like now. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/47 "2013-10-29T14:47:57Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I think you are all missing the point. These plans are grandfathered in as long as the insurance company does not change them in the ways outlined by the HHS. The origination of the change is the insurance company, so it’s like this: No, I totally get that part. Like I said, this was all entirely predictable. For instance, Obama could have said something like this: “If you like your plan, you’ll get to keep your plan, as long as you signed up after March 2010, and as long as your insurance company doesn’t change a few things that will negate the grandfathering. Our research indicates that for those of you who are individually insured, this will apply to roughly half of you. The other half of you will get cancellation notices 3 months before full ACA implementation, and by the way our exchange software will be buggy as hell and you’ll have to sweat for a few months while we sort it out.” But liberals (again, typically my “team”) are now making excuses (Even Apple has buggy releases! Nobody could have predicted that the insurance companies would change their plans slightly year to year!) instead of owning up to the mistakes currently being made. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/48 "2013-10-29T14:48:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It complied with the regulations until they chose to alter it to the degree that it no longer did so. Wait, what? They altered a plan to have it NOT comply with regulations? Why would they do that? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/49 "2013-10-29T14:49:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He is able to do those things because the legislation gives the Secretary of HHS the authority to do so. Nothing in the ACA empowers Obama to “write grandfathering legislations”. The opposite is true. The deadlines for the mandates are firm. The grandfathering regulations are entirely within the discretion of HHS. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/50 "2013-10-29T14:49:58Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > But liberals (again, typically my “team”) are now making excuses (Even Apple has buggy releases! Nobody could have predicted that the insurance companies would change their plans slightly year to year!) instead of owning up to the mistakes currently being made. So the “mistake” being made is what? That a soundbite from a four-year-old interview isn’t significantly nuanced enough for your tastes? That Obama underestimated the willingness of Big Insurance to continue to try and screw over the customer? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/51 "2013-10-29T14:51:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The reason they can’t keep the plan is because the company is no longer _offering that plan_. The company is offering the same plan, just with the usual changes that occur every year. Customers could CHOOSE to not stay with that plan if they don’t like the changes, but the law takes that choice away from them. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/52 "2013-10-29T14:51:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The entire point here is that the government hasn’t decided any such thing. It is _the insurer_ taking the initiative to change their plan such that it is no longer the plan you had, and thus no longer qualifies for an exemption. Utter bullshit. [So, if an insurer changed a premium or a deductible in 2013, the plan is no longer grandfathered under Obamacare and can’t be renewed in 2014.](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/white-house-rejects-nbc-obamacare-report-99001.html#ixzz2j7fpy1Qw) Premiums change all the time. Making it so that if a premium is changed, no matter how small a change, the plan is not “granfathered” anymore means there are effectively no “grandfathered” plans. It’s the equivalent of the “I’m not touching you” children’s game. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/53 "2013-10-29T14:52:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So the “mistake” being made is what? > > That a soundbite from a four-year-old interview isn’t significantly nuanced enough for your tastes? > > That Obama underestimated the willingness of Big Insurance to continue to try and screw over the customer? Well, thank goodness the government was able to prevent people from paying for plans they wanted to keep, but which were screwing them by not giving maternity coverage to 60-year old women. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/54 "2013-10-29T14:53:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Utter bullshit. > > [So, if an insurer changed a premium or a deductible in 2013, the plan is no longer grandfathered under Obamacare and can’t be renewed in 2014.](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/white-house-rejects-nbc-obamacare-report-99001.html#ixzz2j7fpy1Qw) So the plans are being cancelled because the insurer got greedy and jacked up the prices, not because of Obama. Thanks for acknowledging that. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/55 "2013-10-29T14:53:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It complied with the regulations until they chose to alter it to the degree that it no longer did so. [So, if an insurer changed a premium or a deductible in 2013, the plan is no longer grandfathered under Obamacare and can’t be renewed in 2014.](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/white-house-rejects-nbc-obamacare-report-99001.html#ixzz2j7fpy1Qw) So - if the premium changes by $10, is it not the same plan anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/56 "2013-10-29T14:56:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So the plans are being cancelled because the insurer got greedy and jacked up the prices, not because of Obama. Premiums change every year. If the insurer “jacks up the price” by $1, the plan is not grandfathered anymore. Is it not the same plan if the premium is $1 more? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/57 "2013-10-29T14:56:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So the “mistake” being made is what? > > That a soundbite from a four-year-old interview isn’t significantly nuanced enough for your tastes? > > That Obama underestimated the willingness of Big Insurance to continue to try and screw over the customer? Essentially, yes. You’re trying to downplay those two things but for people who are losing their insurance by the end of the year, your casual dismissal isn’t much help. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/58 "2013-10-29T14:57:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [So, if an insurer changed a premium or a deductible in 2013, the plan is no longer grandfathered under Obamacare and can’t be renewed in 2014.](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/white-house-rejects-nbc-obamacare-report-99001.html#ixzz2j7fpy1Qw) > > So - if the premium changes by $10, is it not the same plan anymore? Obama isn’t forcing any grandfathered insurers to change their premiums. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/59 "2013-10-29T14:58:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Obama isn’t forcing any grandfathered insurers to change their premiums. “I’m not touching you. I’m not touching you. I’m not touching you.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/60 "2013-10-29T14:58:13Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Essentially, yes. You’re trying to downplay those two things but for people who are losing their insurance by the end of the year, your casual dismissal isn’t much help. It’s a good thing that they’re now able to buy plans with better coverage and lower premiums, in spite of the best attempts of the Republican party. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=4)