# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/721 "2013-11-05T20:32:27Z")
No, you should read the freaking citations you post! On pp. 15-17 of the PDF, it explains about turnover rates and other factors that affect grandfathering. As relevant to this conversation, the percentage of non-grandfathering that results from things like turnover is irrelevant, since it does not contradict Obama’s assertion that you can keep a plan if you like it. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/722 "2013-11-05T20:47:22Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > No, you should read the freaking citations you post! > > On pp. 15-17 of the PDF, it explains about turnover rates and other factors that affect grandfathering. As relevant to this conversation, the percentage of non-grandfathering that results from things like turnover is irrelevant, since it does not contradict Obama’s assertion that you can keep a plan if you like it. I read it. Yes, those numbers include turnover rates and many other factors. Read all of the circumstances that can cause a plan to lose grandfathered status…it’s right on the pages you mentioned. Also, it’s Obama that contradicted Obama’s assertion that you can keep a plan if you like it. I’m sure you’ve seen the speech where instead of saying “Period” he’s adding those caveats…assuming we will believe he’s been saying this all along. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/723 "2013-11-05T20:50:37Z")
Ok, so your argument is that since HHS expected that the usual number of people would _choose not to renew their coverage_, Obama lied when he said you can keep your plan. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/724 "2013-11-05T20:58:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 2 parents, 2 kids. > > Premium: $890 > Deductible: $5.2K per family, $2.6K per person. > OOP max: $4.6K per person, $9.2K per family > Lifetime max: $2M > Drugs: $15 generic, $35 preferred brand, $75 non-preferred brand (subject to deductible and max OOP) > Physician visits and hospitalizations, labs, outpatient surgery, basically everything: 20% in network, 40% out And you _like_ that plan? I pay $26/month for my coverage via my employer ($41/month for the family plan, BTW) with a $100 deductible, $1000 OOP max, no lifetime max, 80% covered on doctor/hospital visits in-network, and most of my prescriptions cost in the neighborhood of 10-75 cents for a 30-day supply. (And before you ask, I work for a privately-owned company which is not unionized.) You can do better, dude. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/725 "2013-11-05T20:59:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And you _like_ that plan? I pay $26/month for my coverage via my employer ($41/month for the family plan, BTW) with a $100 deductible, $1000 OOP max, no lifetime max, 80% covered on doctor/hospital visits in-network, and most of my prescriptions cost in the neighborhood of 10-75 cents for a 30-day supply. > > (And before you ask, I work for a privately-owned company which is not unionized.) > > You can do better, dude. How much does your employer pay? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/726 "2013-11-05T21:03:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And you _like_ that plan? I pay $26/month for my coverage via my employer ($41/month for the family plan, BTW) with a $100 deductible, $1000 OOP max, no lifetime max, 80% covered on doctor/hospital visits in-network, and most of my prescriptions cost in the neighborhood of 10-75 cents for a 30-day supply. > > (And before you ask, I work for a privately-owned company which is not unionized.) > > You can do better, dude. This plan is better, by far, than any of the plans on the Maryland Obamacare exchange. Which is what the whole thing is about, you know. And guess what - you don’t pay $26/month for your plan. You pay a lot more. It’s just that the cost is hidden from you by your employer. Since I buy my plan, I see the whole cost, not just the tip of the iceberg your employer shows you. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/727 "2013-11-05T21:03:52Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Ok, so your argument is that since HHS expected that the usual number of people would _choose not to renew their coverage_, Obama lied when he said you can keep your plan. > > Good luck with that. Did you bother to read my post? Or the link? Since you probably didn’t I’ll ask…does it take two pages to say that some people will not renew their policies? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/728 "2013-11-05T21:08:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I find it interesting that not one person in this thread has stated that they would _want_ one of these perfectly fine, likeable, absolutely-nothing-wrong-with-them plans that people are having “taken away” from them. How is that relevant? I’ve routinely posted here in support of gay rights despite wanting neither gay sex nor gay marriage for myself. I believe in the rights of Christians and atheists despite being neither. I’d vote in favor of legalizing marijuana despite having no desire to smoke a joint. None of this has raised SDMB hackles before; why should this time be any different? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/729 "2013-11-05T21:14:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I find it interesting that not one person in this thread has stated that they would _want_ one of these perfectly fine, likeable, absolutely-nothing-wrong-with-them plans that people are having “taken away” from them. I find it “interesting” that you think that is a valid debate point to make. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/730 "2013-11-05T21:16:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I find it “interesting” that you think that is a valid debate point to make. If a rational, fully-informed person would not voluntarily choose one of these plans over an ACA-compliant plan, then the argument could be made that the only people who “like” these plans are doing so out of ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/731 "2013-11-05T21:28:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If a rational, fully-informed person would not voluntarily choose one of these plans over an ACA-compliant plan, then the argument could be made that the only people who “like” these plans are doing so out of ignorance. There are about a dozen or so people actively posting in this thread. Do you consider that a good, representative sampling of the US populace? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/732 "2013-11-05T21:40:53Z")
This is rich: [White House asks CEOs to help explain cancelations](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_HEALTH_OVERHAUL_WHITE_HOUSE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-11-05-13-00-23) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/733 "2013-11-05T21:41:36Z")
If we say, “Okay, yeah, he lied,” how long till impeachment hearings open? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/734 "2013-11-05T21:45:35Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > This is rich: > [White House asks CEOs to help explain cancelations](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_HEALTH_OVERHAUL_WHITE_HOUSE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-11-05-13-00-23) Rich? I’m pretty sure you don’t understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/735 "2013-11-05T21:48:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If a rational, fully-informed person would not voluntarily choose one of these plans over an ACA-compliant plan, then the argument could be made that the only people who “like” these plans are doing so out of ignorance. Buddy, I posted the details of my plan that is being canceled here. If you can show me an Obamacare plan that is as good or better feel free. Otherwise - stop the stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/736 "2013-11-05T21:48:46Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Rich? I’m pretty sure you don’t understand it. I understand it perfectly. It seem that, like other things you’ve posted recently in this thread, you don’t really have a handle on any of this. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/737 "2013-11-05T21:56:35Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I understand it perfectly. It seem that, like other things you’ve posted recently in this thread, you don’t really have a handle on any of this. Nope. Right here in this.thread, within approximately the last hour, we have an example of someone getting their coverage cancelled because “Obamacare.” It seems perfectly reasonable to ask those companies to explain it better than that, so Terr doesn’t have to waste his time calling around to get an explanation, doesn’t it? Why is that “rich”? Again, I’m pretty sure you just didn’t understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/738 "2013-11-05T21:57:59Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Did you bother to read my post? Or the link? Since you probably didn’t I’ll ask…does it take two pages to say that some people will not renew their policies? Ok. Let’s extend to you the charitable assumption that when you cited those numbers, you were implicitly only referring to the portion of them not made up of turnover, with no intention to mislead. Tell us which factors you think fall inside Obama’s promise and which are outside. Do you agree that someone who chooses not to renew their plan was not within the ambit of the promise? Who else included in the numbers you cited to us counts? Before you say “all of them,” please read your link carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/739 "2013-11-05T22:01:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > This plan is better, by far, than any of the plans on the Maryland Obamacare exchange. Which is what the whole thing is about, you know. I was able to enroll in a Obamacare plan on [healthcare.gov](http://healthcare.gov) today, and [my experience is very different from yours](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=707015): > [@](#): > > I am a single, self-employed male, age 59. I have had no health insurance since July of 2010, when I lost COBRA coverage on my wife’s employer’s plan. I selected a silver plan which costs $592 per month. I am eligible for a federal tax credit of $486 per month. My total monthly premium will be $106. > > What will I get for my $106? Annual deductible of $750. Annual out of pocket maximum of $1500. > > $20 co-payment for primary care doctor visits. No co-insurance for primary care doctor’s visits. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/740 "2013-11-05T22:03:11Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Nope. Right here in this.thread, within approximately the last hour, we have an example of someone getting their coverage cancelled because “Obamacare.” > > It seems perfectly reasonable to ask those companies to explain it better than that, so Terr doesn’t have to waste his time calling around to get an explanation, doesn’t it? > > Why is that “rich”? Again, I’m pretty sure you just didn’t understand it. It’s you that doesn’t seem to understand. Policies are being canceled because of the regulations covering grandfathering of policies due to Obamacare, yet the President wants the CEOs to explain why the policies are being canceled…like he doesn’t know. This is a ploy meant to distract. Looks like it worked on you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=38)