# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/741 "2013-11-05T22:04:20Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Ok. Let’s extend to you the charitable assumption that when you cited those numbers, you were implicitly only referring to the portion of them not made up of turnover, with no intention to mislead. Tell us which factors you think fall inside Obama’s promise and which are outside. Do you agree that someone who chooses not to renew their plan was not within the ambit of the promise? Who else included in the numbers you cited to us counts? Before you say “all of them,” please read your link carefully. I’m not doing your homework for you. Read the Register and feel free to report the numbers minus the ones you feel are not losing their policies because of broken promises. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/742 "2013-11-05T22:05:17Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I was able to enroll in a Obamacare plan on [healthcare.gov](http://healthcare.gov) today, and [my experience is very different from yours](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=707015): "I am a single, self-employed male, age 59. I have had no health insurance since July of 2010, when I lost COBRA coverage on my wife’s employer’s plan. I selected a silver plan which costs $592 per month. I am eligible for a federal tax credit of $486 per month. My total monthly premium will be $106. What will I get for my $106? Annual deductible of $750. Annual out of pocket maximum of $1500. $20 co-payment for primary care doctor visits. No co-insurance for primary care doctor’s visits." I am not eligible for any government handouts, unlike you. So your plan for one person is $592/month - the equivalent plan for my family of two adults/two children would be north of $1400/month. And there is no such thing as “annual deductible of $750” on Maryland exchange. Try $5000 minimum. $12,500 annual out of pocket for the family. That kind of stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/743 "2013-11-05T22:06:41Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I’m not doing your homework for you. Read the Register and feel free to report the numbers minus the ones you feel are not losing their policies because of broken promises. The Register, sadly, does not tell me what causes you consider to be the fault of Obamacare. Only your brain contains that information. So far, you’ve admitted that a percentage of these numbers are from voluntary non-renewal. And I think you don’t count that as the fault of Obamacare, though you’ve avoided saying so. Now you need to tell us what other causes you would or would not place at the feet of Obamacare. No hurry. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/744 "2013-11-05T22:11:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am not eligible for any government handouts, unlike you. If that is true, you are making more than $94,200 a year. In that case, thank you for making my affordable healthcare possible. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/745 "2013-11-05T22:22:42Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If that is true, you are making more than $94,200 a year. In that case, thank you for making my affordable healthcare possible. How did you get that figure. According to [this site](https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/affordable-care-act/faqs/can-you-explain-how-the-subsidies-work), the subsidies cut off at $45,984/year ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/746 "2013-11-05T22:24:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How did you get that figure. According to [this site](https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/affordable-care-act/faqs/can-you-explain-how-the-subsidies-work), the subsidies cut off at $45,984/year That’s for individuals. Terr has a [family of four.](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2013/1001/Obamacare-101-how-the-federal-subsidy-works-video) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/747 "2013-11-05T22:28:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s for individuals. Terr has a [family of four.](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2013/1001/Obamacare-101-how-the-federal-subsidy-works-video) Got it. But I have to say… I can’t believe we’re giving subsidies to people making over $90k/year. WTF is up with that? I’m sure the feds take into account the different cost of living in different states, right? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/748 "2013-11-05T22:34:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Got it. > > But I have to say… I can’t believe we’re giving subsidies to people making over $90k/year. WTF is up with that? I’m sure the feds take into account the different cost of living in different states, right? 😃 Just trying to keep it simple, I guess. But remember, the subsidy for a family making $94k is a lot less than a family making $24k. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/749 "2013-11-05T22:36:39Z")
Well, it’s only middle class people who need insurance in the first place. If you qualify for Medicaid, you don’t need it. That varies by states. In Minnesota, a family of four making $64,800 is eligible for Medicaid. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/750 "2013-11-05T22:51:55Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The Register, sadly, does not tell me what causes you consider to be the fault of Obamacare. Only your brain contains that information. > > So far, you’ve admitted that a percentage of these numbers are from voluntary non-renewal. And I think you don’t count that as the fault of Obamacare, though you’ve avoided saying so. > > Now you need to tell us what other causes you would or would not place at the feet of Obamacare. No hurry. I don’t think I was being coy by admitting the numbers included turnover rates. I think it is quite obvious that turnovers have nothing to do with Obamacare. I don’t see that there is any argument there…although you seem convinced that I refuse to acknowledge the point. I can only assume you were not trying to mislead when you stated that reading the Register would “demolish” my point since some of those losses are due to turnovers. The Register contains all the information you need to determine which factors are caused by Obamacare if you would bother to read the damn thing and quit pestering me to explain it to you. You don’t need my brain for this exercise. A good rule of thumb is that if the cancellations could easily be explained away by simple things such as “turnovers” and cheap tricks by the insurance companies then the administration would have already put that argument out. They are too busy trying to dance around this issue as well as the President’s blatant lies to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/751 "2013-11-05T22:57:50Z")
Look, you tried to make an argument about what percentage of plans they knew would violate the President’s pledge. When called on the numbers you cited being misleading, you now appeal to me to figure out what the actual numbers are since you can’t be bothered. I’ll pass. I conclude that you don’t actually know whether your own citation supports your claim, and if so, to what extent. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/752 "2013-11-05T23:24:16Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Most of the bad behavior you attribute to Obama is actually deliberate lying by insurance companies. Between [misrepresenting grandfathered policies,](http://m.dailykos.com/story/2013/11/04/1252957/-How-ObamaCare-Cancelled-Your-Plan-is-really-an-Insurance-Co-Scam-to-Rip-You-Off?detail=facebook) and outright lying about being forced to cancel policies, I doubt there are many legitimate policy cancellations that contradict the president. I’m sure you can find a couple and claim victory, but the vast majority of people will save money and finally get insurance which was unavailable before. This is just more right wing invention like Benghazi. Nope. Obama said one thing. The reality is another. Now you could possibly argue that he didn’t know what he said to be untrue, but his latest lie robs you of even clinging to that twig. Regardless of what the insurance companies did or did not do, Obama lied. It’s really that simple. Really. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/753 "2013-11-05T23:34:29Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > It’s you that doesn’t seem to understand. Policies are being canceled because of the regulations covering grandfathering of policies due to Obamacare, yet the President wants the CEOs to explain why the policies are being canceled…like he doesn’t know. This is a ploy meant to distract. Looks like it worked on you. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/754 "2013-11-05T23:36:42Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Look, you tried to make an argument about what percentage of plans they knew would violate the President’s pledge. > > When called on the numbers you cited being misleading, you now appeal to me to figure out what the actual numbers are since you can’t be bothered. > > I’ll pass. I conclude that you don’t actually know whether your own citation supports your claim, and if so, to what extent. Actually, I was pointing out that the administration knew in 2010 that a large percentage of plans in the individual market as well as the small and large employer market would lose grandfathered status while lying about it to the public. You attempted to “demolish” this point by citing that a percentage of those are turnovers. If you had bothered reading the Register you would see the list of things that insurance companies are forbidden to do lest they lose grandfathered status. I _will_ leave it to you to determine what percentage is affected by turnovers since you’re the one making that claim. Since you can’t be bothered to read the document I guess you’ll never know. I’ll pass on doing your homework for you. I assume you know that the Register does not support your claim that all of those lost policies are due to turnover or you certainly would have pointed it out. Now, if you ask real nice maybe I’ll copy and paste, from the document you refuse to read, the changes that result in an insurance plan losing it’s grandfathered status. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/755 "2013-11-05T23:37:10Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If that is true, you are making more than $94,200 a year. In that case, thank you for making my affordable healthcare possible. And that is the crux of it. The Redistributor in Chief is working his magic. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/756 "2013-11-05T23:54:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And that is the crux of it. The Redistributor in Chief is working his magic. How do you feel about that? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/757 "2013-11-05T23:55:08Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Actually, I was pointing out that the administration knew in 2010 that a large percentage of plans in the individual market as well as the small and large employer market would lose grandfathered status while lying about it to the public. Yeah, I know that’s what you were trying to say. And it’s false. As you already conceded. The only question is whether it’s partly false, or completely false. You seem uninterested in trying to salvage even part of your point, so I think we can all draw our own conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/758 "2013-11-06T00:03:20Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Yeah, I know that’s what you were trying to say. And it’s false. As you already conceded. > > The only question is whether it’s partly false, or completely false. You seem uninterested in trying to salvage even part of your point, so I think we can all draw our own conclusions. Apparently you didn’t know that’s what I was trying to say. That’s okay…it’s not the first time in this thread that you’ve shown you don’t know what you’re talking about. There’s nothing false about the statement…just a sad attempt on your part to demonstrate that the president is not lying. Even he can’t weasel out of this one so I doubt you’ll do him much good. As I said previously, if it was anywhere near as simple as you would like us to believe then this wouldn’t even be an issue. This isn’t just the righties attacking the administration for broken promises. I think your devotion is cute but misguided. ETA: I said if you ask real nice I’d copy and paste for you. Does that sound uninterested to you 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/759 "2013-11-06T00:42:16Z")
Its not the broken promises that the righties are afraid of, they are afraid that Obama can back them up. Then what do they do? When they try to sell their case by talking about how terrible Obamacare is to someone who’s pretty content with it. Its not the Pinball Wizard and the Miracle Cure, but is adequate, it’ll do. Ask people who flat couldn’t _get_ insurance before this, ask them how dreadfully disappointed they are. What do the tighty righties say then? “Well, he lied, you know. No, really. He lied. To the American people. On TV. Lied…” You never know how good it can feel to stop worrying until you actually stop. Ain’t no buzz on God’s Green Earth to match knowing that someone you love is much safer now. So, you gonna tell that guy how Obama lied, lied, lied! He’s gonna blink, stare at you and say “Oh, yeah. Forgot about that. Yeah, maybe he did. Tsk-tsk. We done here?” And as he strolls away all you can do is yell at him “Hey, come back here! Obama lied! Lied! Don’t you care that he lied! Well, he lied…” If the Pubbies really meant what they said, if they really believed it, the would be totally on board with funding anything it takes to get the website humming. Every Republican governor would rush to get those state exchanges going. Because that’s how people are _really_ going to find out the truth, isn’t it? The Pubbies should want that, shouldn’t they? They should want people to make those comparisons themselves as soon as possible, to reveal the true horror of Soviet Obama health care. They should be saying “Mr. President, we are so sure that Obamacare is going to bite the donkey’s bag, we are ready to write as many checks as it takes to get that website\* humming!” \* Oddly, they don’t seem so inclined. Ponder, scratch, ponder… ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/760 "2013-11-06T00:43:23Z")
And yet despite all that, millions of people voted for Obama and he’ll be your president for the next 3 years whether you like it or not. And whether you like it or not, the ACA will be implemented and people will still see this as a good thing like Medicare and Social Security. How does that make you feel? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=39)