# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/801 "2013-11-06T16:18:00Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The states don’t have to jump just because the federal government THEY created says so. Article VI, Section 2, aka the Supremacy Clause: > [@](#): > > This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding. :dubious: > [@](#): > > The law was designed to make the exchanges optional. Take issue with the Democrats for designing the law that way. Their existence is not optional. The only choice the Feds allowed the states to have, indulging the feelings of the states’-righters whose views have been obsolete since the Nullification Crisis but continue to be influential nonetheless, was to delegate the task back to the feds if they wished. IOW, you’re wrong yet again. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/802 "2013-11-06T16:21:18Z")
No, he’s not. The case law pretty clearly establishes that the federal government can’t force states to help impose a regulatory framework. It can offer them a carrot, or impose it directly, but it can’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/803 "2013-11-06T16:22:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The only choice the Feds allowed the states to have, indulging the feelings of the states’-righters whose views have been obsolete since the Nullification Crisis but continue to be influential nonetheless, was to delegate the task back to the feds if they wished. It wasn’t “indulging”. It was because the Feds, by law, were not allowed to require the states to establish the exchanges. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/804 "2013-11-06T16:49:31Z")
[Quote=Steve Benen] Maybe it’s worth pausing to remind Republicans what the word referendum means: “an event in which the people of a county, state, etc., vote for or against a law that deals with a specific issue.” I don’t mean to sound picky, but folks shouldn’t call a race a referendum, lose, and then say the referendum proves how right they were – at least if they want to be taken seriously. [/quote] From the Maddow Blog: > **[Far-right suffers another setback in Virginia](https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/far-right-suffers-another-setback-virginia-msna204541)** > > In theory, Virginia Republicans were poised for major victories this year. But after the GOP nominated extremist statewide candidates, it was Dems who prevailed ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/805 "2013-11-06T16:54:09Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > From the Maddow Blog: > [Far-right suffers another setback in Virginia](http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/far-right-suffers-another-setback-virginia) If we assume that Republican + Libertarian voters voted against the law, then it was a referendum against. McAuliffe won a plurality, not a majority of the votes. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/806 "2013-11-06T16:58:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If we assume that Republican + Libertarian voters voted against the law, then it was a referendum against. McAuliffe won a plurality, not a majority of the votes. We could also assume that all McAuliffe voters were also against the law, and just voted incorrectly out of stupidity. So 100% of the VA voters were against the ACA! Truly a stunning turnabout. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/807 "2013-11-06T17:00:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If we assume that Republican + Libertarian voters voted against the law, then it was a referendum against. McAuliffe won a plurality, not a majority of the votes. Why would we assume that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/808 "2013-11-06T17:04:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why would we assume that? They are proposing that the VA governor’s vote was a referendum, by party, on Obamacare. There were 3 parties involved, not 2. If they want to end their little spat about this and say that party voting doesn’t say anything about Obamacare, then that’s fine. But if they insist on saying the elections was a referendum, then they need to explain all the votes, not just he major party votes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/809 "2013-11-06T17:13:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why would we assume that? The same reason you [assumed that all the Democratic votes](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16822755&postcount=777) were a vote for Obamacare. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/810 "2013-11-06T17:36:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The same reason you [assumed that all the Democratic votes](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16822755&postcount=777) were a vote for Obamacare. Uh, John Mace, that was a quote from me. I suspect that if you were paying attention, rather than just insinuating yourself into a discussion youappear ignorant of, you would catch on to the fact that I was not the one who initiated the idea of the VA vote being a referendum. That was **adaher**. I was simply happy to take him up on it. Magellan01 had the good sense to try to short circuit the whole thing, recognizing no doubt the stupidity of calling a vote on the governor’s race in VA a referendum on ACA, especially when the cooch was destined to lose. What I didn’t realize was that adaher was just parroting cooch himself, who was characterizing the race as a referendum on ACA. So, I don’t personally think it was a referendum. I am quite happy though to make sure everyone gets a good look at someone in the act of being hoist on his own petard. The bottom line is don’t call something a referendum on something and then change your mind when it doesn’t go your way. A lesser takeaway is to figure out what’s going on when you try to inject yourself into others’ dialogue. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/811 "2013-11-06T18:04:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They are proposing that the VA governor’s vote was a referendum, by party, on Obamacare. There were 3 parties involved, not 2. > > If they want to end their little spat about this and say that party voting doesn’t say anything about Obamacare, then that’s fine. But if they insist on saying the elections was a referendum, then they need to explain all the votes, not just he major party votes. In looking at Robert Sarvis’ comments on Obamacare, I don’t see where he made it a centerpiece of his campaign or even discussed it at all. He seems to have focused on his own ideas (catastrophic coverage and market-based reforms). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/812 "2013-11-06T18:45:48Z")
Apparently I am not alone in having a good plan canceled because of Obamacare, with Obamacare exchange plans being much worse and more expensive: > **[Loyal Obama Supporters, Canceled by Obamacare](https://www.propublica.org/article/loyal-obama-supporters-canceled-by-obamacare)** > > Lee Hammack and his wife JoEllen Brothers thought they had a great insurance plan. Now, their cost is more than doubling to $1,300 a month, with higher out-of-pocket costs. What’s annoying (to me) is that these people were (and still are) all pro-Obamacare, but want “help”. “Don’t tax you, don’t tax me, tax the man behind that tree.”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/813 "2013-11-06T18:54:04Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Uh, John Mace, that was a quote from me. > > I suspect that if you were paying attention, rather than just insinuating yourself into a discussion youappear ignorant of, you would catch on to the fact that I was not the one who initiated the idea of the VA vote being a referendum. That was **adaher**. I was simply happy to take him up on it. Oh, I’m following that discussion just fine, thank-you-very-much. He never said that we could tell what people think of Obamacare by who won the race-- that was your interpretation (he just said that the race was narrowing). So you decided to run with that, and I’m correcting you. If you want to backtrack, feel free to do so. > [@](#): > > Magellan01 had the good sense to try to short circuit the whole thing, recognizing no doubt the stupidity of calling a vote on the governor’s race in VA a referendum on ACA, especially when the cooch was destined to lose. > > What I didn’t realize was that adaher was just parroting cooch himself, who was characterizing the race as a referendum on ACA. > > So, I don’t personally think it was a referendum. I am quite happy though to make sure everyone gets a good look at someone in the act of being hoist on his own petard. The bottom line is don’t call something a referendum on something and then change your mind when it doesn’t go your way. There was no petard to be hoisted upon, except the one that you made up. > [@](#): > > A lesser takeaway is to figure out what’s going on when you try to inject yourself into others’ dialogue. In this case, keeping you honest. You’re welcome! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/814 "2013-11-06T18:54:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Apparently I am not alone in having a good plan canceled because of Obamacare Even \*you \*didn’t. There are many people like you who’ve had plans (good or not) cancelled with Obamacare used as a _pretext_, though. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/815 "2013-11-06T18:56:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Even \*you \*didn’t. There are many people like you who’ve had plans (good or not) cancelled with Obamacare used as a _pretext_, though. Of course. I had my plan for years. So did the people in the article. Yet suddenly the company just wants to cancel it using Obamacare as a pretext. Can you explain why they didn’t cancel it a year ago? Two years ago? Five? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/816 "2013-11-06T19:04:23Z")
They didn’t think they could get away with it then. Many aren’t getting away with it _now_, either. Have you contacted your state’s AG office about it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/817 "2013-11-06T19:06:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > They didn’t think they could get away with it then. Many aren’t getting away with it _now_, either. What is there to “get away with”? They could do it any time they wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/818 "2013-11-06T19:09:39Z")
From the link above > [@](#): > > The White House says many of those losing coverage have better, cheaper options through the new exchanges. Nope. The only plans on the exchange for my state are worse and/or more expensive than what my son had before. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/819 "2013-11-06T19:12:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course. I had my plan for years. So did the people in the article. Yet suddenly the company just wants to cancel it using Obamacare as a pretext. Can you explain why they didn’t cancel it a year ago? Two years ago? Five? Because they didn’t have a pretext. What is striking about the article is that Kaiser insists that they are cancelling the plan because it doesn’t meet ACA requirements, yet they fail to say what those specific requirements were, and why the plan couldn’t be adjusted to cover them. Until an insurance company will point to the specifics of the ACA that are requiring them to cancel policies, there is no reason to believe that they are cancelling for any other reason than that they now have a pretext to do so. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/820 "2013-11-06T19:15:34Z")
Of course the underlying reason is that they’re losing money on you, or expect to pretty soon based on actuarial stats, not that it would cost them a fortune to offer you pregnancy care too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=42)