# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/841 "2013-11-06T21:13:17Z")
According to 45 C.F.R. 147.140(g), here’s the complete list of changes that can cause a plan to lose grandfathered status: (i) Elimination of benefits [i.e., coverage for particular procedures or conditions] (ii) Increase in percentage cost-sharing requirement [e.g., coinsurance requirement] (iii) Increase in a fixed-amount cost-sharing requirement other than a copayment beyond a fixed maximum increase pegged to medical inflation (iv) Increase in a fixed-amount copayment beyond a fixed maximum increase pegged to medical inflation (v) Decrease in contribution rate by employers and employee organizations beyond a fixed maximum decrease (vi) Addition of an annual limit; Decrease in limit for a plan or coverage with only a lifetime limit; or Decrease in limit for a plan or coverage with an annual limit. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/842 "2013-11-06T21:21:13Z")
Grandfathered plans with lifetime limits are fine. It is false to claim that lifetime limits would be grounds for terminating an existing plan. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/843 "2013-11-06T21:22:08Z")
Indeed. And there are also no restrictions on premium increases. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/844 "2013-11-06T21:30:30Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Grandfathered plans with lifetime limits are fine. It is false to claim that lifetime limits would be grounds for terminating an existing plan. Wrong. > **[Affordable Health Care Act (ACA) Health Insurance Plans | Aetna CVS Health](https://www.aetna.com/aca-individual.html)** > > Get more than you expect from a health insurance company with Aetna CVS Health Affordable Care Act (ACA) individual & family Marketplace plans. Learn how quality Aetna coverage and the convenient care options of CVS come together to bring you... Lifetime dollar limits on essential health benefits are prohibited for plan years beginning September 23, 2010. This applies to all plans new and renewing on or after September 23, 2010, **including grandfathered plans.** > **[Rights & Protections](https://www.healthcare.gov/health-care-law-protections/)** > > Whether you need health coverage or have it already, the health care law offers rights and protections that make coverage fairer and easier to understand. Protections against lifetime limits on coverage apply to all health plans, **including grandfathered plans** , whether you get coverage through your employer or buy it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/845 "2013-11-06T21:33:11Z")
I could be wrong, but I think the (correct) point was that a plan previously having lifetime limits does not prevent it from being grandfathered. It’s just that post-ACA years of the grandfathered plan cannot include those limits. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/846 "2013-11-06T21:36:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I could be wrong, but I think the (correct) point was that a plan previously having lifetime limits does not prevent it from being grandfathered. It’s just that post-ACA years of the grandfathered plan cannot include those limits. I think you misunderstand what “grandfathered” means. It doesn’t mean “you have to change it”. Having lifetime limits would would lead to the plan (without any changes) not being grandfathered. Which would lead to its cancellation. QED. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/847 "2013-11-06T21:39:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Have any funds Obama requested for this been denied to him? I don’t think he needed to request funds, but did he? The GOP has [denied every request](http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/28/opinion/carroll-gop-obamacare-hypocrisy/) to fund implementation of Obamacare, including the website. > [@](#): > > The Obama administration originally had asked for more than half a billion dollars to spend on public relations and outreach for the law. House Republicans had returned with an offer of nothing. That’s right: zero dollars. Without necessary funds, the Department of Health and Human Services worried it would not have the necessary money to pay for navigators to help people enroll in health care, for the technology needed to implement the exchanges and for the public relations campaign that was required to inform citizens about what the law actually did. > > HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius made the controversial move of asking insurance companies and nonprofit organizations to donate money and help. Republicans were outraged. She asked for more money. She was refused. > > Then, when she tried to move some money from the PR budget to replace cuts to other areas, Baucus became quite upset. He was concerned that if the administration did not do more to inform people about the law and get implementation going, there would be problems > [@](#): > > Republicans refused to appropriate money needed to implement Obamacare. When Sebelius tried to shift money from other areas to help do what needed to be done, she was attacked by Senate Republicans. At every step, Republicans fought measures to get money to put towards implementation. So yeah, the website is a bit of a mess, but I’m still 100% supportive of the effort to get health care to people. I don’t fault Obama or Sebelius one bit in this, I blame this on the obstructionist GOP, who, days before the exchanges went live, shut down the government for 2 weeks. Any federal program due to be implemented would have had issues. If anyone should be fired or disciplined, it is each and every Republican in Congress who tried to delay and defund this law. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/848 "2013-11-06T21:41:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I think you misunderstand what “grandfathered” means. It doesn’t mean “you have to change it”. > > Having lifetime limits would would lead to the plan (without any changes) not being grandfathered. Which would lead to its cancellation. QED. Grandfathered means it doesn’t have to comply with most of the requirements of the ACA. That’s how it is defined in the statute. Obama has always been quite clear that some of the changes will apply to every single insurance policy, including the grandfathered ones. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/849 "2013-11-06T21:42:58Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Grandfathered means it doesn’t have to comply with most of the requirements of the ACA. That’s how it is defined in the statute. > > Obama has always been quite clear that some of the changes will apply to every single insurance policy, including the grandfathered ones. Right. Can you point out his statements to that effect around the time he was blabbering about “You can keep your insurance plan if you like it. Period.”? Because I liked my plan. Still like it. It is way better than anything on Obamacare exchanges. And I can’t keep it - because Obamacare says it cannot exist. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/850 "2013-11-06T21:47:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Right. Can you point out his statements to that effect around the time he was blabbering about “You can keep your insurance plan if you like it. Period.”? Because I liked my plan. Still like it. It is way better than anything on Obamacare exchanges. And I can’t keep it - because Obamacare says it cannot exist. Sure. In this [video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Jtg1viK_M), the two statements are literally back-to-back. Another example from his speech at the signing: > [@](#): > > This year – this year, insurance companies will no longer be able to drop people’s coverage, when they get sick – (cheers, applause) – or place – they won’t be able to place lifetime limits or restrictive annual limits on the amount of care they can receive. > > This year – (applause) – this year, all new insurance plans will be required to offer free preventive care. And this year, young adults will be able to stay on their parents’ policies until they are 26 years old. (Cheers, applause.) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/851 "2013-11-06T21:53:24Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Sure. In this [video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Jtg1viK_M), the two statements are literally back-to-back. Um - that is NOT from the time period I asked. > [@](#): > > Another example from his speech at the signing: Neither is this one. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/852 "2013-11-06T21:58:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because I liked my plan. Still like it. It is way better than anything on Obamacare exchanges. And I can’t keep it - because Obamacare says it cannot exist. I think at this point all we know is that your insurance company says ‘because of Obamacare it cannot exist’. And that may be true, but we haven’t gotten to the bottom of exactly why. And we know insurance companies in other cases have been disingenuous in their claims that Obamacare is the culprit. So at this point I’m still skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/853 "2013-11-06T21:58:55Z")
The time period you asked was "around the time he was blabbering about “You can keep your insurance plan if you like it. Period.” Since he said that quote in both sources, I’m not sure what your problem is. You want something from before March 2010? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/854 "2013-11-06T22:01:01Z")
When Obama said that insurance companies had to offer “free preventive care”, what did he mean by “free”? They had to offer it without raising rates or reducing any other benefits as an offset? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/855 "2013-11-06T22:08:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. > > [Affordable Health Care Act (ACA) Health Insurance Plans | Aetna CVS Health](https://www.aetna.com/health-reform-connection/questions-answers/annual-lifetime-limits.html) > > Lifetime dollar limits on essential health benefits are prohibited for plan years beginning September 23, 2010. This applies to all plans new and renewing on or after September 23, 2010, **including grandfathered plans.** > > [Rights & Protections](https://www.healthcare.gov/how-does-the-health-care-law-protect-me/) > > Protections against lifetime limits on coverage apply to all health plans, **including grandfathered plans** , whether you get coverage through your employer or buy it yourself. Huh. That accords with the Kaiser website too: [FAQ: Grandfathered Health Plans - KFF Health News](http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2012/december/17/grandfathered-plans-faq.aspx) I did check another site before posting, but I can’t seem to find it back now. Regardless, I appear to have been mistaken re lifetime limits, and I apologize for misleading. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/856 "2013-11-06T22:11:06Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The time period you asked was "around the time he was blabbering about “You can keep your insurance plan if you like it. Period.” Since he said that quote in both sources, I’m not sure what your problem is. > > You want something from before March 2010? After the law was signed he didn’t need to be the salesman and lie anymore, did he? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/857 "2013-11-06T22:12:16Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > I think at this point all we know is that your insurance company says ‘because of Obamacare it cannot exist’. And that may be true, but we haven’t gotten to the bottom of exactly why. And we know insurance companies in other cases have been disingenuous in their claims that Obamacare is the culprit. So at this point I’m still skeptical. I already gave the reason. Lifetime limit of $2M. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/858 "2013-11-06T22:27:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > After the law was signed he didn’t need to be the salesman and lie anymore, did he? What a silly argument. Did you think about it for more than 2 seconds? But since you asked, here’s a pre-passage cite explaining that parts of the ACA affect all policies: > [@](#): > > If you have health insurance, this reform just gave you more control by reining in the worst excesses and abuses of the insurance industry with some of the toughest consumer protections this country has ever known – so that you are actually getting what you pay for. [http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president-house-vote-health-insurance-reform](http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president-house-vote-health-insurance-reform) > [@Terr](#): > > I already gave the reason. Lifetime limit of $2M. If that’s the reason they gave, it’s a lie. Dropping the lifetime limit does not prevent grandfathering. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/859 "2013-11-06T22:27:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I don’t fault Obama or Sebelius one bit in this, I blame this on the obstructionist GOP, who, days before the exchanges went live, shut down the government for 2 weeks. Didn’t the shutdown start on the _same_ day - not “days before”? And how did that affect the readiness of the website (development of which spanned a couple of years)? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/860 "2013-11-06T22:31:58Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Sure. In this [video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Jtg1viK_M), the two statements are literally back-to-back. > > Another example from his speech at the signing: **Richard** : I’m not sure if you’re talking about the part (around 1 m) where Obama says if you’re one of the 250M Americans with insurance, you get to keep it and that the ACA will make it more secure and more affordable. But is it really the case that none of us is having to pay more for our existing insurance because of the new requirements the ACA places on it? Even with the subsidies, I’m having a hard time believing that is true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=44)