# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/861 "2013-11-06T22:35:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Richard** : I’m not sure if you’re talking about the part (around 1 m) where Obama says if you’re one of the 250M Americans with insurance, you get to keep it and that the ACA will make it more secure and more affordable. But is it really the case that none of us is having to pay more for our existing insurance because of the new requirements the ACA places on it? Even with the subsidies, I’m having a hard time believing that is true. More affordable as compared to what it would be without the ACA. Not sure if that context is clear from that speech alone, but it is clear from the hundreds of other speeches he gave on this topic. He’s talking about the reform future vs. the future in which medical costs continue rapid increases. ETA: But the point I was making is simply that he has often talked about how the ACA will affect all insurance, including existing policies. No one should have understood grandfathering to mean that the consumer protections (anti-caps, anti-rescission, primarily) would not apply to those policies. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/862 "2013-11-06T22:36:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > What a silly argument. Did you think about it for more than 2 seconds? > > But since you asked, here’s a pre-passage cite explaining that parts of the ACA affect all policies: What a weaselly way of saying it. Nothing there about your insurance being cancelled. You’re being “protected”. Orwell had nothing on Obama. > [@](#): > > If that’s the reason they gave, it’s a lie. Dropping the lifetime limit does not prevent grandfathering. And more weaseling. HAVING lifetime limit prevents grandfathering. My policy had a lifetime limit. Hope that makes it clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/863 "2013-11-06T22:39:09Z")
I don’t understand what you’re arguing, **Terr**. No plan is being cancelled as a consequence of it having lifetime limits. The plans have to drop that requirement, but they can still be grandfathered, and they are allowed to increase their premium commensurately. Cancellation, in that situation, is the choice of the insurance company presumably made based on whether they think they can continue to sell the plan at a higher premium. You’re welcome to lay that at the feet of Obamacare, and I’m not saying you don’t have an argument. I’m just trying to correct the misinformation about how grandfathering works. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/864 "2013-11-06T22:43:04Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > More affordable as compared to what it would be without the ACA. Not sure if that context is clear from that speech alone, but it is clear from the hundreds of other speeches he gave on this topic. He’s talking about the reform future vs. the future in which medical costs continue rapid increases. I didn’t think it was obvious from the context, but of course we’ll never be able to know what the costs would have been w/o the ACA. I guess we’ll at least see if the trend is significantly different. > [@](#): > > ETA: But the point I was making is simply that he has often talked about how the ACA will affect all insurance, including existing policies. No one should have understood grandfathering to mean that the consumer protections (anti-caps, anti-rescission, primarily) would not apply to those policies. Yeah, I can pretty much agree with that. I think Obama could have made it more clear, but there was enough stuff out there telling us about the changes and what they would mean. But I think more importantly is that it’s kind of crazy to be making all these pronouncements about the ACA at this point. The web site is still a disaster, and all the aspects still haven’t kicked in. I’m guessing we’ll have a much better idea by mid 2014. I’ll withhold judgement at least until then. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/865 "2013-11-06T22:43:47Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I don’t understand what you’re arguing, **Terr**. > > No plan is being cancelled as a consequence of it having lifetime limits. Mine is. > [@](#): > > The plans have to drop that requirement, but they can still be grandfathered, and they are allowed to increase their premium commensurately. Apparently removing that limit made the plane unfeasible in the eyes of the insurance company. > [@](#): > > Cancellation, in that situation, is the choice of the insurance company presumably made based on whether they think they can continue to sell the plan at a higher premium. You’re welcome to lay that at the feet of Obamacare, and I’m not saying you don’t have an argument. I’m just trying to correct the misinformation about how grandfathering works. Grandfathering doesn’t mean “change it the way we want, then we will allow it”. In fact, let me quote you from your liar-in-charge’s statements just recently: "Now, if you have or had one of these plans before the Affordable Care Act came into law and you really liked that plan, what we said was\*\* you can keep it if it hasn’t changed since the law passed\*\*.” See that “if it hasn’t changed”? I cannot keep my plan **although it has not changed**. Does this make Obama’s lies clearer now? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/866 "2013-11-06T22:58:13Z")
Yeah, I don’t know how to say it more clearly, but I still think you don’t get it. Cancellations resulting from the change in lifetime limits have zero to do with grandfathering. You can blame them on the ACA’s requirements and the insurance company’s cost decisions, but you cannot blame them on the grandfathering provisions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/867 "2013-11-06T23:04:08Z")
**Terr** : No one is going to be convinced by your anonymous MB claim. We’re going to have to wait for this to shake out in the public sphere, and see what the press reports about peoples’ experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/868 "2013-11-07T00:08:04Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Yeah, I don’t know how to say it more clearly, but I still think you don’t get it. I don’t know how to say it more clearly, but I still think you don’t get it. 1. Obama said, just a couple of days ago, that if the plan has not changed, I can keep it. I gave you the exact quote. 2. The plan didn’t change. Yet, under Obamacare, I cannot keep it. It is against the law for me to keep it and it is illegal for the company to continue selling it to me. Combine (1) and (2) together - Obama is a liar. It’s about as clear as it gets. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/869 "2013-11-07T01:03:07Z")
We got that. What actions are you urging? You could ask for impeachment, I suppose. The House Pubbies would probably move to impeach on a charge of aggravated littering. Are you thinking you will shatter the illusions of lefties who think Obama slid down the rainbow? Well, OK, shatter away, who cares? I know maybe one of those, but she was 19 at the time, and isn’t 19 any more. Overall, I find Obama to be pretty good, but no virgin is ever elected Queen of the Whores. And what good would it _do_ to elect a saint? He’d be helpless, a goldfish in a shark cage. How can he advance the rise of Progressivism to world domination if he can’t scratch a back or grease a skid? Hell, if anything, he damaged himself by being _too_ good! I think he genuinely believed in reaching across and forging bi-partisan bridges. Look what he got for _that_! But OK. if it will make your day…Woe is me! Me Golden Idol is tarnished, Obama is human! I only hope I can blink back the tears long enough to fill out the Republican registration form. Alas! Alack! _Aaaaack_! There. Happy now? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/870 "2013-11-07T01:07:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We got that. What actions are you urging? You could ask for impeachment, I suppose. The House Pubbies would probably move to impeach on a charge of aggravated littering. The first thing the public should do is not trust anything the President says on immigration, his next big push. He has proven that he will say anything to sell wha the wants. The second thing is not to trust that he can implement a complicated immigration overhaul. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/871 "2013-11-07T01:10:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The first thing the public should do is not trust anything the President says on immigration, his next big push. He has proven that he will say anything to sell wha the wants. The second thing is not to trust that he can implement a complicated immigration overhaul. Whatever the President has said about health care, he’s far, far more trustworthy than his opponents. The Republicans (especially in the House) have set the bar so low for honesty that they’d make Nixon look like Honest Abe. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/872 "2013-11-07T01:11:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t know how to say it more clearly, but I still think you don’t get it. > > 1. Obama said, just a couple of days ago, that if the plan has not changed, I can keep it. I gave you the exact quote. > > 2. The plan didn’t change. Yet, under Obamacare, I cannot keep it. It is against the law for me to keep it and it is illegal for the company to continue selling it to me. > > Combine (1) and (2) together - Obama is a liar. It’s about as clear as it gets. That’s a pretty harsh statement you’ve made Terr … look at the Obamacare/ACA health care program like his other explanations, perhaps this is just an initial offering with the real program coming March 31st, 2014. Then again it could be explained as just talking points and the real story will come out later.😃 Seriously though I’ve been thinking about the ACA and how it does make a lot of sense … especially for people with real needs. It’s called mercy in some circles. Perhaps like we use to do in the Navy we should form an all hands working party to help one another understand and implement obamacare/ACA. Employers take the time to explain the program to their employees, moms and dads explain to their children, real grown ups helping one another understand how to get the insurance and how to make it work for all Americans. The republican party would be well advised to get behind the obamacare/ACA health care program instead of lying, chuckling, being haughty and hoping the plan will fail. The only way obamacare is going to get better is if we all care … I care and it’s called mercy. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/873 "2013-11-07T01:17:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whatever the President has said about health care, he’s far, far more trustworthy than his opponents. The Republicans (especially in the House) have set the bar so low for honesty that they’d make Nixon look like Honest Abe. That’s debateable, but also not particularly relevant. The public shouldn’t trust the Republicans either. They should trust people actually in a position to know, and trust what they already know. So far, the public has been a better predictor of ACA’s strengths and weaknesses than the politicians. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/874 "2013-11-07T01:21:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s debateable, but also not particularly relevant. The public shouldn’t trust the Republicans either. They should trust people actually in a position to know, and trust what they already know. So far, the public has been a better predictor of ACA’s strengths and weaknesses than the politicians. This is meaningless gobbledygook. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/875 "2013-11-07T01:34:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is meaningless gobbledygook. Agreed. I can’t make heads nor tails out of what it’s supposed to mean. The only thing I understood was that the public, supposedly, has been a good predictor of Obamacare. But I didn’t see any predictions from “the public” that the web site was going to have problems. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/876 "2013-11-07T01:41:17Z")
Well, no one could have predicted that level of incompetence. Not even the law’s most vociferous enemies. What I meant was whether the law would make things better or worse, cheaper or more expensive, that sort of thing. The public did a pretty good job of sifting through the competing lies and exaggerations. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/877 "2013-11-07T01:43:19Z")
I don’t think we have any idea, at this point, of how the finances for this legislation is going to play out. Frankly, I doubt anyone understands it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/878 "2013-11-07T02:00:00Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > The only way obamacare is going to get better is if we all care … I care and it’s called mercy. When you care and reach into your pocket and give to the needy, that’s called mercy. When you care and reach into other people’s pockets and give to the needy, that can be called a lot of things, but “mercy” is not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/879 "2013-11-07T02:08:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t think we have any idea, at this point, of how the finances for this legislation is going to play out. Frankly, I doubt anyone understands it. Well, one thing the public has predicted overwhelmingly is that the bill will add to the deficit, which is at odds with what the CBO says(although the CBO figures include caveats). of course, if few sign up, that’s few subsidies to give out, so that’s something. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/880 "2013-11-07T02:23:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > When you care and reach into your pocket and give to the needy, that’s called mercy. When you care and reach into other people’s pockets and give to the needy, that can be called a lot of things, but “mercy” is not one of them. “Common decency”, then? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=45)