# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/921 "2013-11-07T18:02:35Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > And keep in mind that the context of the line–often explicitly–was as a rebuttal to claims that the government would be choosing your doctor, that you would have to sign up for a new government plan, etc. “Keep your policy” was meant to contrast to government takeover of healthcare. Then Obama should have said you can keep your insurer, not your policy. For me my policy was: $110/mo premium, $25 copay, $15 prescriptions, $1500 deductable, $2500 max out of pocket annually. I’m pretty sure that’s what most people thought of as the plan they get to keep and if you change any of those then it’s not the same policy. The big question is whether or not those changes are due to ACA - hence “Obama lied”. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/922 "2013-11-07T18:03:01Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The 95% turnover is because most people go onto group policies, which are virtually always cheaper than pre-ACA individual market policies. > > There is some subset of those people who, absent the ACA, would have transitioned into a different individual market policy that would have been cheaper pre-ACA. I’m not sure whether there are enough such people to matter for the bottom line of the profit margins of the grandfathered policies. I don’t know about that. Many young, healthy people choose bare-bones plans and shop around yearly to find the cheapest rate. I don’t know what the percentage is but they would be included in the “turnover” number ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/923 "2013-11-07T18:12:23Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > If you were interpreting “keep your policy” in the context of the rest of his speeches, you should have known it meant keep your policy as modified by the few fundamental consumer protections built into the law. There’s no other way to interpret several of his key speeches. It has to comply with five or six out of the \*dozens \*of new requirements–specifically, the five or six that Obama had said all along would apply to all insurance. It is grandfathered for the rest. > > And keep in mind that the context of the line–often explicitly–was as a rebuttal to claims that the government would be choosing your doctor, that you would have to sign up for a new government plan, etc. “Keep your policy” was meant to contrast to government takeover of healthcare. > > So it really is not as clear-cut as all that. So, we have to listen to _all_ of his speeches in order to understand any individual one of them? That makes no sense. There is no “context” to add to the statement I quoted earlier. You don’t add “Period” at the end of a statement and then have an \* that says: subject to the following terms and conditions. That’s not “context”, that’s lying. “Period” means “You don’t need to read any further. This is it.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/924 "2013-11-07T18:27:21Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > That makes sense but the grandfathered plans are restricted in ways I described above without the ability to add new people to the particular plan. So premiums would necessarily skyrocket over time > [@yorick73](#): > > The inability to add new customers to the particular grandfathered individual plan is what will cause prices to increase more over time. I think it’s a bit misleading to say that anyone’s individual coverage will be cancelled because of The ACA or the grandfathering rules. Because individual plans are just that- individual- there really are no individual plans that continue from year to year with or without the ACA. In essence every one is rewritten every year. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > One possible cause of throwing off the economics could be the premium rebate requirement. Do we know if the costs of underwriting the policies counts toward qualified costs in that formula? **RNATB**? I’d have to ask my wife. She’s the real expert. AIUI, though, no “internal” functions count towards qualified costs, despite some heavy lobbying on the issue by the industry. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/925 "2013-11-07T18:30:50Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Then Obama should have said you can keep your insurer, not your policy. For me my policy was: $110/mo premium, $25 copay, $15 prescriptions, $1500 deductable, $2500 max out of pocket annually. I’m pretty sure that’s what most people thought of as the plan they get to keep and if you change any of those then it’s not the same policy. > > The big question is whether or not those changes are due to ACA - hence “Obama lied”. I think interpreting the phrase as saying your policy will not change in any respect is not a reasonable interpretation for at least two reasons: in most cases, the very next sentence was about how the policy would change; and no one thought the ACA was putting in mechanisms to prevent the kind of changes that already happened pre-ACA (like premium increases, for example). > [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, we have to listen to _all_ of his speeches in order to understand any individual one of them? That makes no sense. There is no “context” to add to the statement I quoted earlier. You don’t add “Period” at the end of a statement and then have an \* that says: subject to the following terms and conditions. That’s not “context”, that’s lying. > > “Period” means “You don’t need to read any further. This is it.” I don’t think you would apply that standard anywhere else in life. Almost all human communication involves context. You’re using a \*ton \*of context just to reach the interpretation you’re putting on that sentence. What you want to do is selectively exclude the context (including, often, the very next sentence!). I think that’s unfair. * * * Again, I think it’s fair to say that the ACA probably contributing to the cancellation of policies, and even if that is not an intended effect, and even if people should have been aware of that risk, it still makes Obama’s pledge misleading. What I think is unfair is this reading of his language as meaning no one would see a premium increase or that the ACA would have no effect on existing policies. That’s about as fair as reading the Third Amendment to mean you cannot rip the arms and legs off of soldiers in a house without the owner’s consent. It may be one literally correct reading, but it ignores all the relevant context. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/926 "2013-11-07T18:36:34Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I don’t think you would apply that standard anywhere else in life. I sure would. When someone makes a statement and says “Period” afterwards, they are saying that no further context is needed. What do you think “Period” means? But don’t take my word on this. I’ve already cited the WaPo’s factchecker who gave Obama 4 Pinocchios (you can’t get a worse rating than that) and [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org) which called Obama’s statements about keeping your insurance "one of the health care ‘whoppers’ in 2010, one of the ‘Whoppers of 2012’ and — just last month — one of several ‘Obamacare Myths.’ And by “Whopper”, they’re not talking about Burger King. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/927 "2013-11-07T18:41:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I sure would. When someone makes a statement and says “Period” afterwards, they are saying that no further context is needed. What do you think “Period” means? I find that reading absurd. “Period” does not mean ignore all context in interpreting what I meant by this phrase. It means there are not hidden conditions or exceptions. If I read “you can keep your health plan, period” to mean I can keep it even if I stop paying premiums, is that a reasonable reading? Why or why not? Be sure not to use any context! That’s not allowed because he said “period”! > [@John Mace](#): > > But don’t take my word on this. I’ve already cited the WaPo’s factchecker who gave Obama 4 Pinocchios (you can’t get a worse rating than that) and [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org) which called Obama’s statements about keeping your insurance "one of the health care ‘whoppers’ in 2010, one of the ‘Whoppers of 2012’ and — just last month — one of several ‘Obamacare Myths.’ And by “Whopper”, they’re not talking about Burger King. Yes, I’m aware of those opinions. Obviously, I disagree. Are you shocked? Have you ever disagreed with factcheck or Glenn Kessler? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/928 "2013-11-07T18:49:54Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I find that reading absurd. “Period” does not mean ignore all context in interpreting what I meant by this phrase. It means there are not hidden conditions or exceptions. OK, I can go with that definition. And if I have to search through his other speeches to find those conditions and exceptions, then they are hidden. > [@](#): > > If I read “you can keep your health plan, period” to mean I can keep it even if I stop paying premiums, is that a reasonable reading? Why or why not? Be sure not to use any context! That’s not allowed because he said “period”! But the plan includes a premium that has to be paid. That not “context”, that the definition of the term “plan”. > [@](#): > > Yes, I’m aware of those opinions. Obviously, I disagree. Are you shocked? Have you ever disagreed with factcheck or Glenn Kessler? I have never thought that 4 Pinocchios should be 0 Pinocchios, and I can’t recall a time when I thought [FactCheck.Org](http://FactCheck.Org) was wrong. What, specifically, do you disagree with about those analyses? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/929 "2013-11-07T18:52:22Z")
So, it turns out that in the case of at least one insurer, “we’re cancelling your plan because of Obamacare” actually means["We’re going to trick you into changing your plan so that you lose your grandfathered status";](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/11/07/2906861/major-insurance-company-lawsuit/) > [@](#): > > “Blue Cross successfully enticed tens of thousands of its individual policyholders to switch out of their grandfathered health plans and forever lose their protected grandfathered status,” states the lawsuit. “Blue Cross concealed information about the consequences of switching plans and intentionally misled its policyholders to encourage the replacement of grandfathered policies.” > > The plaintiffs, Paul Simon, 39, and Catherine Corker, 63, of California say that they are among the customers that Anthem Blue Cross pressured to drop their grandfathered policies in 2011 without giving them all the facts about new Obamacare requirements that could raise the price of their plans in an effort to cut its own costs. Simon and Corker would have preferred to remain on the grandfathered plans permitted by the law, and are now asking the courts to block Anthem from canceling any more policies unless the company allows consumers to switch back into their grandfathered plans. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/930 "2013-11-07T19:01:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But the plan includes a premium that has to be paid. That not “context”, that the definition of the term “plan”. And how do you know that definition, John? If I look up “plan” in the dictionary, I don’t get that information. Where did you get it? Obviously, you know what the word means because of…context. He’s referring to your insurance policy, and he’s talking about the effect of health care reform on your policy. You get that information from–you guessed it–the other sentences in his speech (not to mention the broader context of the ACA debate). That’s why it’s absurd to say a reasonable person could listen to only that sentence and not, say, the very next sentence. To even understand that sentence you have to understand the context in which it was uttered. So, again, I think it’s quite artificial and absurd to say that “period” means ignore the next sentence and ignore the argument that this sentence is rebutting. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/931 "2013-11-07T19:10:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So, it turns out that in the case of at least one insurer, “we’re cancelling your plan because of Obamacare” actually means["We’re going to trick you into changing your plan so that you lose your grandfathered status";](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/11/07/2906861/major-insurance-company-lawsuit/) In my dealings when my son had BCBS, I’d be shocked if they didn’t try to scam their customers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/932 "2013-11-07T19:14:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So, it turns out that in the case of at least one insurer, “we’re cancelling your plan because of Obamacare” actually means["We’re going to trick you into changing your plan so that you lose your grandfathered status";](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/11/07/2906861/major-insurance-company-lawsuit/) No, it means that there is a lawsuit pending and we don’t know wether the plaintiffs will win or not. **Richard** : I think there is a world of difference between saying “context means having heard all of the speeches Obama has made on the subject” and “context means the definition of a word that everyone agrees on”. If you can show me a person who thinks that “insurance plan” does not include the premiums one pays, then you may have a point. But if you think most people feel they can’t judge Obama’s words when he makes an unambiguous promise in one speech unless they search through his other speeches to make sure he hasn’t contradicted that promise in another speech, then I think we simply have to agree to disagree on this and let the reader decide. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/933 "2013-11-07T19:22:08Z")
We seem to be talking past each other. At no point have I maintained that “context means having heard all of the speeches Obama has made on the subject.” And you keep ignoring my actual points, which include the fact of context _in the very next sentence_ many of the times that he used this phrase. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/934 "2013-11-07T20:06:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think it’s a bit misleading to say that anyone’s individual coverage will be cancelled because of The ACA or the grandfathering rules. Because individual plans are just that- individual- there really are no individual plans that continue from year to year with or without the ACA. In essence every one is rewritten every year. Since you seem more informed on the techinical issues of insurance can you tell me if what I wrote in post #913 is incorrect? If it is not then individual plans do continue from year to year if the policy holder decides to keep the plan. I’m not sure how misleading it is to say that ACA caused the cancellation of policies. The fact that Sen. Enzi proposed legislation to block the rule on grandfathering because of the potential for canceled policies plus the new Dem effort to pass a bill that will let people keep their current plans doesn’t sound like it’s just insurance companies screwing people over. Technically, ACA might not have forced these plans to be cancelled but the grandfather rules may have deliberately been written so narrow as to have the same effect. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/935 "2013-11-07T20:22:41Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > **Saint Cad** : You have a lot of facts wrong about what causes a policy not be grandfathered and what requirements are imposed on grandfathered plans. I posted above all the factors that prevent grandfathering. Increased premiums is not one of them. I’ll do another post on all the requirements imposed on them. I never said increased premiums prevented grandfathering. My point was that most Americans think of their policy as premiums and benefits. Those changed because of ACA and so I was not able to keep my policy. Whether or not that is truly accurate, that is many Americans’ perception and thus “Obama lied”. On a previous post, to get the facts on grandfathering regulations I went to the [Federal Register](https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2010/06/17/2010-14488/interim-final-rules-for-group-health-plans-and-health-insurance-coverage-relating-to-status-as-a). ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/936 "2013-11-07T20:28:08Z")
I’m not sure where you read that including dental is something required of all plans, for example. The complete list of grandfathering rules is my post [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16825231&postcount=841). And the complete list of requirements for all policies is [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16827377&postcount=904). Both are taken directly from the regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/937 "2013-11-07T20:53:30Z")
I only said it dental was for children. Kaiser chose to make it for all plans that they sent me but maybe considering my son is under 19 they only sent me lists of plans with dental coverage. As for a cite that those under 19 are required to have dental, do a google search of “dental aca” and you’ll find a ton. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/938 "2013-11-07T20:54:39Z")
I’m not following your claim. Are you claiming that grandfathered plans are required to add dental coverage for those under 19? If so, that is not correct. Grandfathered plans are not required to add so-called “essential health benefits.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/939 "2013-11-07T21:11:58Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I’m not following your claim. Are you claiming that grandfathered plans are required to add dental coverage for those under 19? If so, that is not correct. Grandfathered plans are not required to add so-called “essential health benefits.” But new policies are so if the plan was not grandfathered in, they are required to have adolescent dental. I thought you meant that I implied that under EHB everyone needed dental and I was clarifying that under the new rules 19+ insureds are not required to have dental. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/940 "2013-11-07T21:16:05Z")
That’s right. Grandfathered policies = no dental required. New policies = dental for kids. I thought you had suggested in your prior post that a grandfathered policy was forced to include dental when you said this: > [@](#): > > Let’s define “keeping your policy” as your current policy that may be improved to comply with ACA and where there is no area it got worse (higher premium, higher copay, lower benefits, etc.). Take my son’s case. To be compliant with ACA, his policy needed to include dental and lift the lifetime limit. The Obamacare apologists are absolutely correct in that my insurance company could have made these changes and still let me keep my policy. > > But look at the insurance companies end of it. In order to keep my policy, it needs to pay for my improved benefits (dental and unlimited lifetime benefits) AND pay for people that have the highest medical costs i.e. those that the company had determined to not insure because of their health or medical condition. Understand that these are people that the underwriters have said medical cost will outweigh any possible premium they could charge. So given the reality of Obamacare, there would be no feasible way they could let me keep my old policy. Since a grandfathered policy does not, in fact, have to “include dental,” nor does it “pay for people that have the highest medical costs i.e. those that the company had determined to not insure because of their health or medical condition” (except for group policies, and then only kids), I don’t see what those things have to do with whether the grandfathering rules adequately complied with the President’s pledge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=48)