# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/81 "2013-10-29T15:39:41Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > That’s kind of the point of insurance. Those of us without house fires subsidize the people whose houses burn down. Not really. Your explanation is correct, but it’s not what ACA actually does. What ACA does is more akin to making people without houses pay to insure houses. An even more accurate analogy is forcing people in the desert to pay the same flood insurance rates as people living in Key West, Florida. That’s not actually how insurance is supposed to work, and it’s not how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/82 "2013-10-29T15:41:28Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > So, under Obamacare, yes, you are going to have to pay. And pay and pay and pay. The point is that if it works, it should cost responsible people like you less in the long run, and improve outcomes across the board. Really? You think that since you “pay and pay and pay” for Obamacare, other taxes will go down? What amazing naivete. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/83 "2013-10-29T15:42:16Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > When Obama said “you can keep your insurance policy,” I thought it was very clear that it meant, “The government isn’t going to be canceling policies or forcing anyone onto some kind of public exchange,” and not, “We are forcing insurance companies to continue offering your current policy as-is for an indefinite time.” Obviously a lot of people understood his statement differently, so that’s a big mistake on his part. But I don’t think it’s a flaw with the ACA per se. No one could take his assurance to mean that no one would lose their insurance, just as no one could take his assurance to mean that no one would lose their job. Insurance companies get cancelled, jobs are lost(and created) for reasons that have nothing to do with ACA or any other law. Where he was dishonest was in that he was responding to criticisms that the passage of ACA would result in people losing their insurance who otherwise would not lose their insurance. He compounded his dishonesty by accusing those who made that very valid prediction that THEY were the ones being dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/84 "2013-10-29T15:43:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Really? You think that since you “pay and pay and pay” for Obamacare, other taxes will go down? What amazing naivete. This is why Internet discussion sucks. She was clearly talking about healthcare costs, not all taxes, and your comment only serves to confuse and complicate the already unwieldy topic. edit: > [@adaher](#): > > Where he was dishonest was in that he was responding to criticisms that the passage of ACA would result in people losing their insurance who otherwise would not lose their insurance. He compounded his dishonesty by accusing those who made that very valid prediction that THEY were the ones being dishonest. OK, a fair criticism, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/85 "2013-10-29T15:43:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > My insurance plan covers 100% of pregnancy related medical bills. I’m not getting pregnant, ever. Seems like my insurance provider made an arbitrary and/or politically motivated decision, and the result is that I have higher premiums, higher deductibles, with some stuff free that I will never use and some stuff that I will have to pay full freight for. > > Won’t you join me in my outrage against my insurance company? Prior to this, you didn’t have to buy that plan. You chose to, because it was still a better deal than the alternatives. A lot of people who do not need maternity coverage and don’t have it now have to buy it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/86 "2013-10-29T15:45:45Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Why is it so disturbing now? If you’re going to be paying for them anyway (unless you advocate turning dying people away from ERs) why wouldn’t you want to go with the better, cheaper option? How do you know it is going to be cheaper? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/87 "2013-10-29T15:46:16Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > This is why Internet discussion sucks. She was clearly talking about healthcare costs, not all taxes Quote: “Right now we pay for that through taxes.” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/88 "2013-10-29T15:46:39Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There are, however, people who ARE qualified to do just that. I would hope that at least a few of them have been hired to work on this mess. Regardless, just because I can’t do something I don’t assume no one else can. Trust me, no one can manage your finances for you. Which is essentially what making people buy health insurance is doing. You are being told that food comes second, health insurance comes first. Rent comes second, health insurance comes first. And even if you did decide that your budget should include health insurance, you have to have a plan that covers certain things in certain ways which you do not need. It would be like the government mandating that everyone have a 401(k), and that this 401(k) MUST be 80% domestic large cap stocks. And defenders of this mandate would say things like, “Well, a 401(k) made up of too many small-caps is too speculative and thus irresponsible, and a 401(k) made up of Treasuries is too conservative. This is just right and will assure best outcomes for all.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/89 "2013-10-29T15:47:19Z")
Honest question: Obamacare (as per HHS) will not fine (oops tax) you if your plan is grandfathered in. So what is the process of grandfathering in an existing plan. As much as I oppose the ACA in its current form, if your insurance company simply had to write a letter to Sec. Sibilius then you can blame Obama. If the administration made it de facto (as opposed to de jure) impossible to grandfather in an existing policy then yes Obama lied. If the law makes it impossible to grandfather in an existing policy then there’s plenty of blame to go around. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/90 "2013-10-29T15:48:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Quote: “Right now we pay for that through taxes.” You’re aware that other people can go read my entire post, right? Just checking. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/91 "2013-10-29T15:49:24Z")
Personally, I think the insurance mandate is kind of dumb, but it’s what we were left with after people bitched and complained about having a public option. So, congratulations, now there’s no public option and instead we have this insurance mandate. Which, IMO, is still better than the previous situation, in which we just let people be uninsured and rack up debilitating ER costs that the rest of us all end up paying for in the long term. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/92 "2013-10-29T15:50:14Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Honest question: > Obamacare (as per HHS) will not fine (oops tax) you if your plan is grandfathered in. So what is the process of grandfathering in an existing plan. > > As much as I oppose the ACA in its current form, if your insurance company simply had to write a letter to Sec. Sibilius then you can blame Obama. If the administration made it de facto (as opposed to de jure) impossible to grandfather in an existing policy then yes Obama lied. If the law makes it impossible to grandfather in an existing policy then there’s plenty of blame to go around. As I posted above, it is possible to “grandfather” a plan - if it is frozen - that is, if the benefits, the premiums and the deductibles do not ever change. Any change - no matter how little - and it is not “grandfathered” anymore. Which make it de facto impossible to grandfather any plans. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/93 "2013-10-29T15:51:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > What makes you think the average American is knowledgeable enough to make truly intelligent decisions about health coverage? > > I once applied for a job at a company that bragged they offered health insurance even to their temp employees. The guy really thought it was a kick-ass plan. Actually, it was shit. Significant deductible ($500 - keep reading and compare to the benefit cap), lots of exclusions, and an annual benefit cap of $3,000. That’s not a typo, I really did say three thousand dollars. That ain’t shit. That probably won’t cover a single emergency room visit. A policy like that might be affordable in regards to premium but actually it’s a rip-off because it’s damn near useless. > > Something that egregious was eliminated some year ago, there are no longer such stringent caps, but there are still plenty of health plans that are basically rip-offs and near useless if you actually get sick or injured and I’m glad to see such things eliminated no matter how much people whine about it. > There are, however, people who ARE qualified to do just that. I would hope that at least a few of them have been hired to work on this mess. Regardless, just because I can’t do something I don’t assume no one else can. That type of insurance is perfect for most young and healthy people. Very few young people are going to be using more than 3k per year and it keeps premiums low enough for young people just starting out to afford it. I wish I had that plan available when I was young and making little money. No one is qualified to make decisions for millions of people they don’t know. These super geniuses who want picking your healthcare options don’t exist. You go to the store and there are 50 kinds of spaghetti sauce, and 20 kinds of pasta imagine someone tasked with picking out the right kind of sauce and pasta for everyone in america without having talked with anyone. Healthcare is infinetly more complex. The only way to find out what people want and can afford is dozens of different companies offering dozens of different plans and tweaking them each year as a response to customer demand. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/94 "2013-10-29T15:53:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Trust me, no one can manage your finances for you. While the average person does have final authorities over his or her finances, the average person is NOT a financial expert. Anyone investing for retirement is a damn fool if they don’t consult those more knowledgeable about the subject. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/95 "2013-10-29T15:56:50Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The only way to find out what people want and can afford is dozens of different companies offering dozens of different plans and tweaking them each year as a response to customer demand. Do you work for an insurance company? Because that is one of the only ways this statement makes sense to me. Do you honestly believe that insurance companies are faithfully tweaking their plans every year in response to _customer demand_? Here is the number of health insurance companies I am able to choose from via my husband’s current employer: One. Here is the number of plans they offer us: Two. I am, shall we say, less than impressed with the wide variety of choices and options available to us on the glorious free market. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/96 "2013-10-29T15:57:11Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > When Obama said “you can keep your insurance policy,” I thought it was very clear that it meant, “The government isn’t going to be canceling policies or forcing anyone onto some kind of public exchange,” But if a policy is getting cancelled because it’s not ACA compliant and the insurance company’s suggested replacement is twice as much, then the effect is functionally the same from the user’s perspective – they had a policy, they liked it, now it’s gone (because of Obamacare) and they’re forced onto the exchanges. If this were happening to a few people I could forgive the administration for not advertising this side effect, but the numbers are massive (50-75% of individual policies), so it’s inexcusable IMO. It should have been sold differently. It’s good to hear that the exchange websites are starting to work better; that’s certainly something that’s not getting a lot of news coverage. If the sites had worked flawlessly from day 1, the above complaint wouldn’t have been as big of a deal. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/97 "2013-10-29T15:59:41Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Here is the number of health insurance companies I am able to choose from via my husband’s current employer: One. Here is the number of plans they offer us: Two. > > I am, shall we say, less than impressed with the wide variety of choices and options available to us on the glorious free market. Do you think the insurance companies other than the one that is your choice at your employer’s refused to offer plans to you? Or was it your employer that decided that they could not? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/98 "2013-10-29T16:02:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Do you think the insurance companies other than the one that is your choice at your employer’s refused to offer plans to you? Or was it your employer that decided that they could not? I’m sure you think you’re making some kind of point with this, but I have decided not to try to figure it out and am carrying on with the rest of the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/99 "2013-10-29T16:03:45Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Here is the number of health insurance companies I am able to choose from via my husband’s current employer: One. Here is the number of plans they offer us: Two. > > I am, shall we say, less than impressed with the wide variety of choices and options available to us on the glorious free market. You aren’t the customer selecting the plans in that scenario. Your husband’s employer is. If you looked at the market options available in 2009, you would have seen upto 50 (or less/more depending on your locale) plans that you could get instead of your husband’s employer’s options. It’s the same as saying “My husband’s employer only offers a coffee cup with the employer’s brand on it. The free market has failed coffee cups!” Whether or not you decided to go with your husband’s employer’s provided options or not is entirely dependent on your needs, of course. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/100 "2013-10-29T16:06:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > While the average person does have final authorities over his or her finances, the average person is NOT a financial expert. Anyone investing for retirement is a damn fool if they don’t consult those more knowledgeable about the subject. Or avail oneself of the extensive literature on investing issued by reputable sources not trying to sell you anything. Dun and Bradsteet issues an investing guide annually which is outstanding, and Motley Fool has been around for a long time giving sound investment advice. But also, the average government official is not a financial expert, and I doubt many people in HHS are. One guy who definitely is not is the President, yet he’s trying to tell young people that it’s a “good investment” for them, even though they are buying at a higher price than necessary, which violates Investment 101: [http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/331029-hhs-touts-low-prices-for-young-people-under-obamacare](http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/331029-hhs-touts-low-prices-for-young-people-under-obamacare) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=6)