# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1021 "2013-11-09T03:10:48Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I think that, once again, you’ve completely missed the point. Are you able to articulate the point, or are you just mindlessly repeating this same allegation? Because the issue is clear to me. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1022 "2013-11-09T03:35:20Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > This is less than the lowest of the three plans our daughter’s college offers for _students_ – in other words, young people with a low risk of serious heath problems. If average age adults are, or were in 2010, paying only $2,580 in the individual market, these average plans must be quite poor ones, with exclusions for preexisting conditions, and maximums so the insurance company doesn’t pay for catastrophes, resulting in the cost of such care being socialized. > > [US health spending for the average person is well over $8,000](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_(PPP)_per_capita). I don’t see how you can expect the average adult with income too high for a subsidy to pay just $2,580 plus copays. I pointed out what the average premium was. Why are you bringing in average spending per capita? Have you heard of deductibles, copays, coinsurance etc? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1023 "2013-11-09T03:36:23Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Terr, are you asserting that health insurance premiums usually stay constant? It kinda seems that way. I am asserting that you saw “16% lower” and didn’t bother to wonder “16% lower than what?”. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1024 "2013-11-09T05:26:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am asserting that you saw “16% lower” and didn’t bother to wonder “16% lower than what?”. Are you not capable of reading what I wrote when I linked to the story in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1025 "2013-11-09T06:54:39Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Are you not capable of reading what I wrote when I linked to the story in the first place? I am. You apparently are not capable of understanding what you’re reading. Hence your silly statement of: “Your link says that premiums went up on average 41%. Mine says they have gone down 16%.” When one link’s base was existing premiums and the other link’s base was projected ones. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1026 "2013-11-09T06:57:58Z")
“Premiums are less than expected” is a way of shrouding the truth. People aren’t interested in what the CBO projected, they want to know if their premiums are going up. Period. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1027 "2013-11-09T09:17:35Z")
Well, that certainly settles _that!_ ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1028 "2013-11-09T10:45:00Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Since nothing I posted on that subject was something I hadn’t already said not more than a page back, I had the idea you were, I don’t know, trying to explore some idea from a different angle or offer something new to the thread. I haven’t read the whole thread so I couldn’t say if my point about actuarial pooling of healthy and unhealthy was new. Nobody forced you to respond to it. > [@](#): > > But, I guess you were just trying to establish 0bAma l13z! Lol, you are the one who jumped in with the “grandfathered” distinction presumably so you could argue that Obama was technically telling the truth even though many peoples’ plans may have been changed in the manner I described. So it’s completely reasonable for me to point out that (apparently) Obama’s statement was untrue even using your excessively charitable and unreasonable reading of it. > [@](#): > > Ok. Here’s a cookie. Umm, thanks for a concession which is more graceful than what is typical on internet messageboards. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1029 "2013-11-09T11:19:12Z")
The big test will be whether the President signs the Let People Keep Their Insurance Act or whatever it’s called. If he was being honest and just didn’t know, it’s a no-brainer that he’ll sign. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1030 "2013-11-09T12:37:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I pointed out what the average premium was. Why are you bringing in average spending per capita? Have you heard of deductibles, copays, coinsurance etc? Since “copays” was the last word of the post you quote, I’m thinking – yes. I’m also thinking that the billed amount for my wife’s bilateral knee replacement was well over $100,000, and the copays under than $2,000. Your ratio may vary, but you still cannot get real unsubsidized health insurance for a middle aged American (no annual/lifetime maximum, no picking and choosing for the healthy) for $2,800 a year.\* > [@yorick73](#): > > The point is that the ACA would not have passed if politicians had been honest. Same thing applies to repeal and replace. Tens of millions will see their premiums go up and coverage go down. Fortunately, Republicans are honest enough to highlight unpleasant truths, so the Affordable Care Act is safe 😉 * * * - Or maybe you can with true and pure catastrophic insurance combined with a health savings account, as allowed by the Affordable Care Act, but not may have that. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1031 "2013-11-09T12:43:44Z")
Darn five minutes limit. Last four words of my last post should read “few have that.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1032 "2013-11-09T14:25:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The big test will be whether the President signs the Let People Keep Their Insurance Act or whatever it’s called. If he was being honest and just didn’t know, it’s a no-brainer that he’ll sign. I think it’s called “Let People Keep their CRAPPY Insurance Act”. Does it have a chance of passing in the Senate? ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1033 "2013-11-09T16:07:18Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > What the fuck? Do you know what “average” means? Your link says that premiums went up on average 41%. Mine says they have gone down 16%. How can they “explicitly say the same thing”? Please read your own link before implying other people are stupid. The study in my link is about buyers in the individual market. Your link asserts that overall premiums are 16% lower than the CBO’s projections. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1034 "2013-11-09T16:12:41Z")
I voted for Obama and think the ACA is a step in the right direction. However, I can easily acknowledge that some people got screwed. The people in this thread arguing that Obama didn’t lie about everyone being able to keep their plans (which is the subject of the thread) are being ridiculous. He did. At best, it’s similar to arguing the fall didn’t kill the guy; it was the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1035 "2013-11-09T16:41:43Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Since “copays” was the last word of the post you quote, I’m thinking – yes. I’m also thinking that the billed amount for my wife’s bilateral knee replacement was well over $100,000, and the copays under than $2,000. Your ratio may vary, but you still cannot get real unsubsidized health insurance for a middle aged American (no annual/lifetime maximum, no picking and choosing for the healthy) for $2,800 look again at the cite. That’s the average for all. Not only middle aged. Same with CBO projections. average for all. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1036 "2013-11-09T16:50:51Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Your ratio may vary, but you still cannot get real unsubsidized health insurance for a middle aged American (no annual/lifetime maximum, no picking and choosing for the healthy) for $2,800 a year.\* But if I am healthy, there is no direct benefit to me (and a huge downside) by no longer “picking and choosing for the healthy.” That kept my premium costs down, much like State Farm denying auto insurance to those with 5 DUIs. I understand that we need a mechanism to insure those with pre-existing conditions but if the ACA had been sold as “your premiums increase to subsidize those with pre-existing conditions” it never would have passed. It goes back to my point that seems to get lost in this thread that an insurance policy is not “crappy” to a healthy 25 year old male which denies coverage for pre-existing conditions and fails to provide maternity care. It is beneficial to that person when his policy has these exclusions. Now, you may say that he’s a selfish bastard for thinking that way and needs to pay more to cover those with pre-existing conditions, but the ACA was sold as a law that would reduce premiums and reduce the deficit, not as a redistribution of wealth that takes from largely the middle class. Warren Buffett’s hypothetical daughter who has stage IV breast cancer can get a lesser premium because rates have increased for our 25 year old working stiff. I can’t blame some for thinking they were lied to by a system that claims “affordability” while increasing their premiums. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1037 "2013-11-09T16:52:42Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Tens of millions will see their premiums go up and coverage go down. No, this is what we are seeing with the ACA. Not tens on millions yet give it a few more months. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1038 "2013-11-09T16:58:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think it’s called “Let People Keep their CRAPPY Insurance Act”. > > Does it have a chance of passing in the Senate? Well, there are a few red state dems who are looking for cover from the fallout over the ACA debacle. They will probably support it. Mary Landrieu from LA is one who has stated support for such an act. The real problem is that ACA can’t work without all these people losing their plans and being forced onto the exchanges. That’s not a bug of the system…it’s a primary function. Otherwise the exchanges will be filled with the sick and those that require subsidies. I’m curious to see how the dems, who know this, will act. They voted in a party-line vote to shoot down a similar bill by Mike Enzi in 2010. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1039 "2013-11-09T17:02:52Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Are you able to articulate the point, or are you just mindlessly repeating this same allegation? Because the issue is clear to me. I did articulate the point. **Terr** did a much better job of articulating the point shortly after my attempt. I think it’s been articulated no less than three times so far. Are you able to understand the point or are you just mindlessly reading headlines of stories you post? Because the issue is clear to everyone **but** you ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1040 "2013-11-09T17:09:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > To wit: CBO thinks that individual premium for the second-lowest-cost silver plan in 2016 will be $5,700. In 2010, average individual premium across US for individual policies [was $2,580](http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/individual-premiums/). So - CBO projected a HUGE increase. Then it got you all happy telling you that maybe the increase will be slightly less. This type of subterfuge in promoting government plans is atrocious. It’s not just the ACA, but every government plan likes to project high costs and then claim savings when the plan comes in under those self-projected costs. It would be similar to a home invader who declared that he would murder your four kids before he left, and when he leaves, he only murders 3 of the 4 and then claims that he reduced, through his own actions, the projected homicide rate in your family due to home invasions by 25%. It’s an outlandish example, but it illustrates the method. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=53)