# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1081 "2013-11-10T08:26:09Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Hmmm…and it looks correct. [Second try.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/16/meet-cgi-federal-the-company-behind-the-botched-launch-of-healthcare-gov/) Am I supposed to see some sort of horror story here, about corruption, incompetence and malfeasance? True, they don’t seem to measure up to the standards of a true American paragon, like Halliburton or Blackwater. But they’re not Americans, so maybe such perfection is beyond them. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1082 "2013-11-10T08:41:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Am I supposed to see some sort of horror story here, about corruption, incompetence and malfeasance? True, they don’t seem to measure up to the standards of a true American paragon, like Halliburton or Blackwater. But they’re not Americans, so maybe such perfection is beyond them. Well, I see an IT company that fucked up two large projects being put in charge of creating a very important, very complex (I assume) website that allows potential customers the only way to sign up for insurance on the federal exchange. I, personally, see a problem with HHS giving this company the contract but you seem much more forgiving. Blinders and all… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1083 "2013-11-10T13:06:56Z")
Heck, that’s not even the important part, the important part is that they never did get that gun registry to work, and that’s a lot simpler than what CGI is trying to do now. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1084 "2013-11-10T13:10:27Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Well, I see an IT company that fucked up two large projects being put in charge of creating a very important, very complex (I assume) website that allows potential customers the only way to sign up for insurance on the federal exchange. No, you can also apply by telephone, or by mail, which my daughter did. See: > **[Apply for Health Insurance](https://www.healthcare.gov/apply-and-enroll/how-to-apply/)** > > Use HealthCare.gov to create an account and apply for health coverage, compare plans, and enroll online. Apply by phone or get in-person help with your application. Official government website. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1085 "2013-11-10T13:58:29Z")
Oh, the poor dear! How is she holding up? Devastated, or merely shocked and horrified? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1086 "2013-11-10T14:14:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, the poor dear! How is she holding up? Devastated, or merely shocked and horrified? After enduring THE lie, how can any other slings and arrows even register? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1087 "2013-11-10T14:19:27Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Well, I see an IT company that fucked up two large projects being put in charge of creating a very important, very complex (I assume) website that allows potential customers the only way to sign up for insurance on the federal exchange. I, personally, see a problem with HHS giving this company the contract but you seem much more forgiving. Blinders and all… Your cite: > [@](#): > > … has, however, helped deliver complex projects on time and on budget. Back in 2009, the White House’s Recovery Board retained CGI Federal to adapt a well-functioning system it had built for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency into [FederalReporting.gov](http://FederalReporting.gov), another very complex, public-facing and high-volume site that would handle all contracts granted under federal stimulus legislation. This one got built in six weeks, for much less money, and won accolades for its flexibility and reliability… Escaped your notice, did it? And this: > [@](#): > > …What exactly went wrong? > > That is a matter of some disagreement. And the answer isn’t necessarily that CGI is wholly responsible… So, when you see the words “isn’t neccesarily” what you read is “totally necessarily, for sure, for sure…”? And these damning words: > [@](#): > > …“Our concern was that CGI (as a main contractor on the federal health exchange) would be linked in a negative way to exchange difficulties. This by and large has not happened – there is no indication that CGI failed to deliver on its commitments — and the stock is up 4% since Oct. 1 (when enrollment in exchanges began).”… You didn’t mention any of this. Gotta wonder why, **Yorick**. Why would a champion of strict candor and honesty, such as yourself, be so selective? Must be _my_ blinders. Yeah, that must be it. Please proceed, **Yorick.** However, it must be noted that if one googles “Canada CGI gun registry” one gets a veritable avalanche of non-partisan citations: Daily Caller, Rush Limbaugh, the much esteemed Breitbart, so on and so forth. Really, a pantheon of reliable sources and strictly non-partisan reporting. We are probably not as smart as we think we are, but thank the Goddess we aren’t as stupid as _you_ think we are. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1088 "2013-11-10T14:36:46Z")
I reside in the People’s Republic of Minnesota, so I gave it a google, see how the people are reacting. What I see is tepid, luke warm, mild approval, which is how Minnesotans behave when they are enraged, shocked and sickened. Wait! I see the smoke rising from effigies of Obama ablaze in the…oh, wait, no, burning leaves. Smoking a turkey over there. Still, very likely seething with rage inside. That’s how these people are, you gotta live among them to understand. I \*don’t \*understand, but I hear you gotta. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1089 "2013-11-10T14:40:51Z")
Another [interesting piece from WaPo](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-relying-more-on-insurance-carriers-to-help-fix-healthcaregov/2013/11/09/ecfcc294-489b-11e3-a196-3544a03c2351_story.html?hpid=z1): > [@](#): > > The White House is increasing its reliance on insurers by accepting their technical help in efforts to repair the problem-ridden online health insurance marketplace and prioritizing consumers’ ability to buy plans directly from the carriers. > > The Obama administration’s broader cooperation with insurers is a tacit acknowledgment that the federal insurance exchange — fraught with software and hardware flaws that have frustrated many Americans trying to buy coverage — might not be working smoothly by the target date of Nov. 30, according to several health experts familiar with the administration’s thinking. > > \ > > The 2010 Affordable Care Act requires most Americans to have health insurance, and December is a vital period. Those who are uninsured must buy plans by Dec. 15 to be covered by Jan. 1, the date the requirement begins. Those who do not buy coverage by March 31 will face financial penalties. The question is whether everyone will be able to meet those requirements if the Web site’s problems persist. > The possibility of using health plans to directly sign up large numbers of uninsured Americans is a strategy by the administration and the insurance industry to try to deflect growing pressure from Capitol Hill. Even some Democratic lawmakers want to give people more time to buy coverage. And Sens. Joe Manchin III (D-W.Va.) and Mark Kirk (R-Ill.) introduced legislation late last week that would eliminate the tax penalty for next year, imposing a higher fine in 2015. > > Such delays are anathema to the insurance industry, whose leaders have warned that companies would end up with mainly sicker people signing up early on. I don’t know what they’ll do with a significant delay to a functioning website. Delaying the coverage requirement is simply not an option–the whole model collapses of its own weight if the only people signing up are the sickies. This could quickly become unresolvable. I’m not sure where that point of unresolvable failure is, but I would think if we’re well into December, the website is still a piece of shit, and enrollment is anemic, we’re closing in on it. PhillyGuy, I’ve read in several places that using phone and mail isn’t a true solution, in that the poor schlub taking the call still has to use the same system to sign you up, with all the same problems, bad data and non-functioning aspects. Not to mention the fact that it completely destroys the bells and whistles that would have made the site a powerful tool (you know, providing actual customer-specific details and points of comparison). Is that no longer the case? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1090 "2013-11-10T14:51:03Z")
This caught my eye: > [@](#): > > …have been talking about how to solve this problem, perhaps on a temporary basis, and insurers are insisting that they be allowed to keep any extra subsidy money they might accidentally be paid… Offered without comment. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1091 "2013-11-10T15:55:40Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > :I don’t know what they’ll do with a significant delay to a functioning website. Delaying the coverage requirement is simply not an option–the whole model collapses of its own weight if the only people signing up are the sickies. I agree that’s a problem. A related problem is if people can plausibly claim that they tried to sign up in good faith but were unable to do so. It will be politically difficult to penalize such people or to deny them retroactive coverage if they run up a lot of hospital bills. In hindsight, they probably should have put everything off for an additional year once it was reasonably clear that they would not have a fully functioning system in time. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1092 "2013-11-10T16:16:07Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I don’t know why you’re asking again, since I already answered it. And this entire exchange was not a debate over what the solution is or if Obama should be impeached or whatever other straw man you’d rather argue against. It was to ask you what you think should be done, beyond what is being done, other than to bash Obama. > [@](#): > > It was in response to your finger pointing at the vendors, as if the administration wasn’t responsible for the vendor’s output. I don’t know what you do for a living, but in business, that’s not how it works. In my business, yes, a vendor is responsible for its own output. A vendor is also responsible for bringing problems and recommended solutions to the client’s attention. That is especially true if the client is inexperienced in guiding an allegedly-experienced vendor. Their failure to do so is not the client’s fault, although the client does pay a price for it, as we see now. Go on bashing Obama for lacking significant experience in software development, among other things, but put primary responsibility for fucking up on the primary fuckups, please. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1093 "2013-11-10T16:20:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Go on bashing Obama for lacking significant experience in software development, among other things, but put primary responsibility for fucking up on the primary fuckups, please. You might want to have a chat with **elucidator**. Did you read post 1087? We are all sort of assuming this was a vendor fuck-up, but we don’t know that. In fact, it’s quite possible the vendor pointed out problems, but the administration went ahead with the launch for political reasons. I suspect it’ll be some time before we know the full details, and given how politically charged this issue is, we may never really know. However, as a citizen and a customer of this web site, my ire is still directed at my supplier if it doesn’t work, and that supplier is the administration. It’s their job to manage their vendors, and if the vendor fucks up, then I don’t care. The buck stops at Obama, and he and Sebelius have explicitly told us to hold them responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1094 "2013-11-10T17:19:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > In my business, yes, a vendor is responsible for its own output. A vendor is also responsible for bringing problems and recommended solutions to the client’s attention. That is especially true if the client is inexperienced in guiding an allegedly-experienced vendor. Their failure to do so is not the client’s fault, although the client does pay a price for it, as we see now. That’s not how it works in corporate America. What business are you in exactly, where you hands things off to the vendor and hope for the best? Must be pretty exciting. > [@](#): > > Go on bashing Obama for lacking significant experience in software development, among other things, but put primary responsibility for fucking up on the primary fuckups, please. Seriously, you don’t know what you’re talking about here. That’s not how it works. The administrator is responsible for managing the vendor. You never get to blame the vendor, because it’s your job to make sure the vendor delivers. Experienced PM’s know how to do this through standard project requirements and protocols. Inexperienced administrators, those who know how to give speeches but really are executives in name only, watch their projects crash and burn. And as John pointed out, it’s not even clear the vendors fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1095 "2013-11-10T17:31:33Z")
You are offering us a standard that is not universally accepted, we are to believe that the practices of American business are somehow so admirable that you can beat us about the head and shoulders with them? To a large degree, the practices of American business in the realm of health insurance are precisely the practices that require our actions, we might not be in this mess if it were not for the brutal, greedy and inhumane “standards” of that industry. No doubt this works quite well when preaching to the choir, but what about us atheists? For instance, as noted above, the report that insurance companies are demanding that any undeserved payment that should fall into their hands should remain theirs? Is this the sort of standard you demand we respect? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1096 "2013-11-10T17:48:38Z")
No, we’re not talking about “business practices” in general. You are. We are talking about Project Management, which is used in business, the military, and all over government. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1097 "2013-11-10T17:59:38Z")
I quite agree, what works is what works. That is a standard that is not unique to capitalist enterprises, nor are such enterprises the accepted standard to which we all might aspire. Even the most skilled project manager might well be hiring outside of his area of expertise, no? Boiled down, that decision is little more than trust, assuming that one chooses between candidates with verifiable _boney fidos_. This is not to say that one can hire a vendor and wash his hands of responsibility, but unless there is clear evidence that the choice is poorly made, that responsibility is limited. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1098 "2013-11-10T18:52:21Z")
Not really. If the project fails, then the project manager has failed. A good PM will, however, know well in advance if failure is looming. He can bring this up and make recommendations, or lie low and hope for the best. If he does the former, a good senior manager will value that input, and make the needed adjustments. Sometimes that involves delaying a product rollout. Now, we are told that Obama didn’t know about these potential problems until after the roll-out. Either his PM didn’t know either, in which case he was incompetent, he knew and didn’t bring it to Obama’s attention, in which case he was irresponsible, or Obama didn’t make an effort to keep himself informed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1099 "2013-11-10T19:01:53Z")
Well, now, that is decidedly odd. He has so little to do, I wonder that he isn’t wandering about poking his nose into things, especially those things where he has so much expertise, like database architecture and web based design. Did he skip those classes at Harvard Law, and got a pass due to affirmative action? Memory fails, which President did we blame for the failure of the “O” rings on the Challenger? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1100 "2013-11-10T19:29:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Memory fails, which President did we blame for the failure of the “O” rings on the Challenger? **Otter** : Challenger? **Boon** : Forget it, he’s rolling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=56)