# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1101 "2013-11-10T19:31:26Z")
This is his signature legislative achievement, affecting 17% of the entire US economy. If he doesn’t have time for that, then he better get his priorities straight. He doesn’t need any expertise in anything to listen to someone who tells him that software isn’t ready to launch. But if he doesn’t have the expertise to hire people who will tell him this when he needs to hear it, then he has no business being president. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1102 "2013-11-10T19:44:21Z")
I’m a bit fuzzy on the technique there, **John**. What methods do you apply to determine who is likely to tell you what you need to hear, and who is not? Firm handshake? Steady eye contact, a preference for Old Spice? You have this expertise, perhaps you will share some of the basic techniques? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1103 "2013-11-10T19:47:40Z")
I interview the person, review and verify what’s on his resume, and talk to previous managers. But most importantly, I’ve made it clear that I reward, rather than punish, that type of behavior. It has worked quite well for me-- I’ve hired lots of PMs over the years. (Anything beyond that, and you’re going to have pay my usual consulting fee.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1104 "2013-11-10T19:53:06Z")
When you say it worked “quite well”, is that the same as saying “failure rate zero”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1105 "2013-11-10T20:16:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > When you say it worked “quite well”, is that the same as saying “failure rate zero”? That’s not the measure. The measure is no project failed that we didn’t have enough advance warning about so as not to create problems like the one we are discussing here. I never had to go to the company president and say “I didn’t know about these catastrophic problems until after the product was launched”. Had I done that, I would expect to be around too long. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1106 "2013-11-10T23:57:19Z")
Well, if you say so, you say so. After all, what would I know? Once agreed to pay an auto mechanic $140 to pack my muffler bearings and align the torsion valves. Turns out, my brother in law would do it for $75. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1107 "2013-11-11T00:08:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m a bit fuzzy on the technique there, **John**. What methods do you apply to determine who is likely to tell you what you need to hear, and who is not? Firm handshake? Steady eye contact, a preference for Old Spice? You have this expertise, perhaps you will share some of the basic techniques? Why does it matter if John Mace, me, you, or the guy down the street knows or doesn’t know these things? This is what Obama is paid $400k per year to do on our behalf. If you hire a guy to paint your house, and he buys paint that was of inferior quality, who is to blame? Is is fair for him to quiz you on “how am I supposed to know a reputable paint salesman when I see one”? Of course not. You paid the guy $X and in return you want a freshly painted house. It’s his job to deliver you a freshly painted house. Period. If he has labor, supply, or permit problems, then that is his problem and up to him to figure it out. If he doesn’t, he won’t stay in business. How does that translate to Obama? He did a piss poor job with this rollout. Impeachment is not a constitutional option for doing a bad job; it’s only for high crimes and misdemeanors. But can’t we still agree that he did a piss poor job on this? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1108 "2013-11-11T00:18:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, if you say so, you say so. I didn’t say so, you said so. It was just 4 posts up. > [@elucidator](#): > > What methods do you apply to determine who is likely to tell you what you need to hear, and who is not? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1109 "2013-11-11T01:05:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m a bit fuzzy on the technique there, **John**. What methods do you apply to determine who is likely to tell you what you need to hear, and who is not? Firm handshake? Steady eye contact, a preference for Old Spice? You have this expertise, perhaps you will share some of the basic techniques? How about as a start assembling a team that actually has a track record in doing so and the requisite expertise to actually pull it off? The opposite of what the Obama team did, in other words. Here, [give this a read](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/challenges-have-dogged-obamas-health-plan-since-2010/2013/11/02/453fba42-426b-11e3-a624-41d661b0bb78_story.html), it was already provided once: > [@](#): > > In May 2010, two months after the Affordable Care Act squeaked through Congress, President Obama’s top economic aides were getting worried. Larry Summers, director of the White House’s National Economic Council, and Peter Orszag, head of the Office of Management and Budget, had just received a pointed four-page memo from a trusted outside health adviser. It warned that no one in the administration was “up to the task” of overseeing the construction of an insurance exchange and other intricacies of translating the 2,000-page statute into reality. > > Summers, Orszag and their staffs agreed. For weeks that spring, a tug of war played out inside the White House, according to five people familiar with the episode. On one side, members of the economic team and Obama health-care adviser Zeke Emanuel lobbied for the president to appoint an outside health reform “czar” with expertise in business, insurance and technology. On the other, the president’s top health aides — who had shepherded the legislation through its tortuous path on Capitol Hill and knew its every detail — argued that they could handle the job. > > In the end, the economic team never had a chance: The president had already made up his mind, according to a White House official who spoke on the condition of anonymity in order to be candid. > > \ > > Three and a half years later, such insularity — in that decision and others that would follow — has emerged as a central factor in the disastrous rollout of the new federal health insurance marketplace, casting doubt on the administration’s capacity to carry out such a complex undertaking. > > “They were running the biggest start-up in the world, and they didn’t have anyone who had run a start-up, or even run a business,” said David Cutler, a Harvard professor and health adviser to Obama’s 2008 campaign, who was not the individual who provided the memo to The Washington Post but confirmed he was the author. “It’s very hard to think of a situation where the people best at getting legislation passed are best at implementing it. They are a different set of skills.” He put in place a team that had virtually no chance of success, who hadn’t the experience or expertise to even recognize what a royal screw-up they were launching. You want a better chance at effectively managing vendors? Good executives hire people who know how to do so when they don’t have that specific know-how, then they manage the shit out of that team, getting regular updates and seeing evidence of real, documented results. Again, the opposite of what Obama did. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1110 "2013-11-11T01:44:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But if he doesn’t have the expertise to hire people who will tell him this when he needs to hear it, then he has no business being president. I could come up with at least this strong a reason why every president had no business being president. FDR’s main job he was being paid for, in 1941, was managing our likely entry into the war. So the warnings concerning imminent attack not being sufficiently heeded at Pearl Harbor and in the Philippines would become his fault, because he didn’t make sure reliable people got back to him on the measures being taken to scramble aircraft and put ships to sea. But condemning Roosevelt this way would be absurd because head of state is not a management position; it’s a governance position. Taking about bad governance, what about the governors and legislators who are leaving large quantifies of money on the table due to not accepting the medicaid expansion? To recap, they could get the medicaid expansion for free for three years, and then 90 percent paid for after that. Looked from the standpoint of the economic development policies of every state, where they bribe companies, and even non-profits, to locate in their state, these are dream numbers that only an incompetent would fail to grab. As a result, hospitals in GOP states will go bankrupt due to the federal subsidy for uncompensated care being slashed because, with medicaid expansion, it is no longer needed. With apologies to the ghost of Steve Allen, this is the start of something big: [http://www.reflector.com/news/vidant-closing-pungo-hospital-2150983](http://www.reflector.com/news/vidant-closing-pungo-hospital-2150983) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1111 "2013-11-11T01:53:16Z")
If you want to make the case about other people not having adequate experience to cover certain events, why don’t you start a thread about them and see how it works out? Besides, whether or not anyone else was not up to the task isn’t really an argument about what Obama should or should not have done. Plus, there is a huge difference between preventing something that no one really knows is going to happen or not, and rolling out a website in support of your signature piece of legislation. The latter is a known quantity, with dozens of models out there to act as guides. Preventing a sneak attack on the US before the invention of radar… not so much. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1112 "2013-11-11T03:24:30Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > No, you can also apply by telephone, or by mail, which my daughter did. > > See: > > [Apply for Health Insurance](https://www.healthcare.gov/how-do-i-apply-for-marketplace-coverage/) And then the apps still have to go through the same computer system that doesn’t work. Which is why the number of people applying is so small, despite the supposed availability of other options. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1113 "2013-11-11T03:33:56Z")
Six months from now, the story will be told. And most likely, forgotten. If this thing works, the millions of people who have affordable insurance for the first time are going to be very forgiving. A long with many others relieved of the various burdens imposed by a system that values profit over people. We should be embarrassed that nations with nowhere near our money and power take care of their people better than we do, we should be positively ashamed that we let it go on as long as we have. Perhaps Romney would have done a better job, that’s possible. But Romney would not have tried. And if we say a better job could have been done, then aren’t we saying that which is broken can be fixed? Heck, the way some of you talk, it was easy-peasy Japanesey, how could Obama have screwed up such an simple task? If its that simple, then it can be fixed. There are people in this very thread could have managed it over a long lunch, a pity Obama didn’t ask. Did you notice that bit Hannity did? When people first started connecting in fits and starts, he wanted to do a show about how terrible it all was, how bitterly disappointed were the people who signed on. He had to lie, he had to bring on people who’s stories were fabrications, easily debunked. If this thing is so bad, how come he had to lie? Shouldn’t bitterly angry people have been thick upon the ground, shouldn’t it have been easy to find people to tell the awful truth? A small data point, perhaps, but telling. This thing can work, and if and when it does, who will care how clumsily it was born? Americans can be very generous in forgiving the guy who wins. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1114 "2013-11-11T03:47:27Z")
That’s just the thing, the disappointment won’t come until people actually see how much they have to pay. Hannity jumped the gun, but don’t worry, many who are already experiencing sticker shock are reacting. “I supported the law until I found out I’d be paying for it!” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1115 "2013-11-11T04:29:54Z")
Oh he jumped the gun! I see, yes, that makes perfect sense, he couldn’t find six who fit his needs, so he made shit up. Uh huh. But now there are “many”, you tell us. So what’s stopping him from doing it now? Its not like he has any shame. Or integrity. Anyway, I’ve missed all those stories about the “many”. But you must have them at your very fingertips, otherwise you wouldn’t…oh, wait. Nevermind. My random memory was a bit more random than usual. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1116 "2013-11-11T04:40:09Z")
You haven’t heard about the cancer patient who can’t find a plan that lets her see all he doctors? That kinda sucks. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1117 "2013-11-11T04:54:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Six months from now, the story will be told. And most likely, forgotten. If this thing works, the millions of people who have affordable insurance for the first time are going to be very forgiving. A long with many others relieved of the various burdens imposed by a system that values profit over people. We should be embarrassed that nations with nowhere near our money and power take care of their people better than we do, we should be positively ashamed that we let it go on as long as we have. I could go all snarky on you, and ask how you know this. How you are able to see into the future, but I won’t. Instead… I agree, as I said much earlier in this thread, that the true test is going to be what people’s experiences are in or about the summer of '14. I’m not convinced, as you are, that it will be mostly positive. But we’ll see. There are lots of variables, and I think anyone who says he can predict what will happen is talking about what the way he wishes things to rather than the way he knows they will. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1118 "2013-11-11T05:33:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You haven’t heard about the cancer patient who can’t find a plan that lets her see all he doctors? That kinda sucks. Haven’t actually heard about it from you either. You in too much of a hurry to offer a cite? Some place you urgently need to be? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1119 "2013-11-11T05:40:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You haven’t heard about the cancer patient who can’t find a plan that lets her see all he doctors? That kinda sucks. [http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/11/07/2906471/cancer-patient-wall-street-journal-buy-cheaper-obamacare-policy/](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/11/07/2906471/cancer-patient-wall-street-journal-buy-cheaper-obamacare-policy/) By any chance, do you mean _this_ cancer patient, as featured in the _Wall Street Journal_? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1120 "2013-11-11T05:49:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I could go all snarky on you, and ask how you know this. How you are able to see into the future, but I won’t. Instead… > > I agree, as I said much earlier in this thread, that the true test is going to be what people’s experiences are in or about the summer of '14. I’m not convinced, as you are, that it will be mostly positive. But we’ll see. There are lots of variables, and I think anyone who says he can predict what will happen is talking about what the way he wishes things to rather than the way he knows they will. I appreciate that, **John** , not everybody realizes how sensitive and vulnerable I am. But as a staunch non-partisan, you most likely don’t get the hive-mind memo, so you wouldn’t know. Obamacare isn’t expected to be great. Aiming for mediocre, to start with, head towards single payer, which remains our actual goal bwah ha ha etc. Can’t really be all that great as long as we have to cut the insurance companies in for a slice of the pie. Their profit is a built in inefficiency, that money is better spent on better health care. I’m not supposed to tell you this, since you are not one with Landroo. So, don’t let on, OK? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=57)