# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 64
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1261 "2013-11-14T06:39:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If you want NHS stories of denied treatment, they are easy to find. On the Telegraph’s site. Not so much the BBC or the Guardian. > > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9706918/50000-denied-treatment-to-save-NHS-cash-claims-Labour.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9706918/50000-denied-treatment-to-save-NHS-cash-claims-Labour.html) > > As for accountability, when has a party in Britain lost Parliament due to dissatisfaction with NHS? Yes, the British right wing media likes to bash the NHS to score political points. Even they don’t really want to get rid of it, though. Any party that attempted to close down the NHS and substitute an American style privatized heath care system in Britain would certainly lose control of Parliament in a heartbeat. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1262 "2013-11-14T06:45:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not sure it can be done. Maybe they should call this the “Put the Toothpaste Back in the Tube Act”. If they want to take care of the million or two at most that actually can’t find better and cheaper plans on the private market and on the exchanges all that needs to be done is pass a one year tax credit for those people to break even. Of course there’d be documentation required etc and then we’d really find out how many of all the anecdotal stories about losing insurance is true. We’d need Republicans in the House to go along - that is if they are truly interested in helping those people. That is the obstacle that remains to be seen. Are Republicans interested in helping or keep on hurting in order to posture themselves politically on their chief fundraising cash machine - The ACA. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1263 "2013-11-14T06:55:29Z")
England? NHS? When did we start talking about England? So, when you say “the government” you are talking about _England_? Seriously, dude! Da fuk? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1264 "2013-11-14T06:57:11Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Yes, the British right wing media likes to bash the NHS to score political points. Even they don’t really want to get rid of it, though. Any party that attempted to close down the NHS and substitute an American style privatized heath care system in Britain would certainly lose control of Parliament in a heartbeat. And that is why you lose accountability. The bureaucrats will never be fired, the activists face no risk that their project will be rejected, the politicians don’t directly run it, and “America is worse!” can always be used as a distraction. Although pointing out that “Germany is better!” would probably be more helpful. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1265 "2013-11-14T06:58:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > England? NHS? When did we start talking about England? So, when you say “the government” you are talking about _England_? Seriously, dude! Da fuk? NHS is the worst example, but even in well functioning systems, when the government says “no”, you might as well start measuring for the coffin. When a private company says “no”, there are options, although none of them easy. The government’s word is usually final. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1266 "2013-11-14T08:09:39Z")
You talk about “when the government denies treatment” and you get called on it, you try to tell me you were talking about England. Please. That’s embarrassing. Don’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1267 "2013-11-14T08:25:48Z")
England is the most egregrious case. It is also the model that single-payer advocates most love. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1268 "2013-11-14T08:59:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > England is the most egregrious case. It is also the model that single-payer advocates most love. 1. NHS is not single-payer, it’s single provider. 2. You know why it’s so easy to find stories of people being denied treatment on the NHS? _Because it’s so rare._ How many similar stories would you get in the US? You could practically have a running ticker of people being denied treatment. 3. The UK still has a private healthcare system (and private health insurance), and if for whatever reason the UK denies you treatment **you still have the option to go private**. So no coffins, unless of course you can’t afford private healthcare. Of course, in the US system you’d go straight to step 2. Do you ever tire of talking about things you know nothing about? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1269 "2013-11-14T09:06:50Z")
Latvia. He was talking about Latvia. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1270 "2013-11-14T09:12:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If you want NHS stories of denied treatment, they are easy to find. On the Telegraph’s site. Not so much the BBC or the Guardian. > > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9706918/50000-denied-treatment-to-save-NHS-cash-claims-Labour.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9706918/50000-denied-treatment-to-save-NHS-cash-claims-Labour.html) Two things. First, the article is repeating a claim made by a Andy Burham, a representative of the opposition party. It does not make the claim itself, and doesn’t present any evidence for the claim. Second, this denial of care is (according to the Labour rep.) directly a result of the current Conservative government slashing government programs. David Cameron is, as I understand things, from the party in the UK that is, in general, less keen on things like socialized health care. So this was not a problem before the Conservatives came into power, and is a problem now, because of how Conservatives, who don’t like the NHS, have changed the NHS to be less functional. At least, that’s according to the Labour party - and since you’re willing to take their unsourced assertion about people not getting medical treatment at face value, I’m certain that you’ll take their assertions about the Cameron government’s policies with an equal amount good faith. > [@](#): > > As for accountability, when has a party in Britain lost Parliament due to dissatisfaction with NHS? Well, as the article you posted noted, these were reforms instituted by the Tory government, in response to complaints about long wait times in the NHS. Said reforms being, as I understand it, not particularly popular with the UK electorate. So while I’m not aware of any party falling out of favor in the UK because people dislike the NHS, we may shortly see a party fall out of favor because people like the NHS so much. It’s also worth mentioning that those 50,000 people who will, allegedly, not be treated for their health problems? They also wouldn’t be treated in the US. Even if you think the NHS isn’t covering enough, it’s still covering vastly more than the US does, which makes the prospect of adopting a similar program in the US _more_ desirable, not less. And I get the impression from your posts that it’s the opposite argument you’re trying to make. Lastly, on a hunch I looked around to see if I could find mention of this story from the Guardian or the BBC. I admit, I could not find coverage of this year-old speech, from a Labour politician, on the BBC or the Guardian. I did find no end of articles about Andy Burham blasting the Cameron government’s handling of the NHS in general. Also, an article, from the Guardian, accusing the BBC of not sufficiently covering the protests against Cameron’s cuts. Which, from other articles I found, appeared to be fairly extensive. But I didn’t find any other coverage of the specific claim that 50,000 people were being denied care, under the NHS, thanks to cuts made by David Cameron. Clearly, this lack of coverage in the mainstream press of this particular instance of a Labour politician excoriating a Tory politician over his bungling of the NHS is part of some sort of a left wing plot in the British media. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1271 "2013-11-14T09:17:27Z")
Oh, _that_ England! The one over there by France! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1272 "2013-11-14T09:38:01Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > 1. NHS is not single-payer, it’s single provider. Single payer and single provider. > [@](#): > > 1. You know why it’s so easy to find stories of people being denied treatment on the NHS? _Because it’s so rare._ How many similar stories would you get in the US? You could practically have a running ticker of people being denied treatment. It’s not that rare. It’s pretty routine according to the cite. And for exactly the same reasons private insurance companies deny treatment: the bottom line. > [@](#): > > 1. The UK still has a private healthcare system (and private health insurance), and if for whatever reason the UK denies you treatment **you still have the option to go private**. So no coffins, unless of course you can’t afford private healthcare. Of course, in the US system you’d go straight to step 2. Only if you don’t have insurance or your claim is denied. The systems are similar, the only difference is the main insurer. The incentives are all the same and the results are pretty close. Among our insured population, I’d bet anything that we are MILES ahead of them. The good thing about ACA is that it’ll expose the deficiencies of single-payer systems, which will no longer be able to claim they are better than the American system. > [@](#): > > Do you ever tire of talking about things you know nothing about? Well, someone here doesn’t seem to tire of it. You made a ridiculous claim, that NHS denial of treatment is rare, something which you cannot prove. Here’s the facts: > **[Health system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_system)** > > A health system, health care system or healthcare system is an organization of people, institutions, and resources that delivers health care services to meet the health needs of target populations. > There is a wide variety of health systems around the world, with as many histories and organizational structures as there are countries. Implicitly, countries must design and develop health systems in accordance with their needs and resources, although common elements in virtually all health systems... The US has 96 preventable deaths per 100,000 people. The UK, 83. The entire discrepancy can be explained by our uninsured population, which means that at minimum, the US insured are no more likely to be denied care and die than NHS patients. So the real question we should be asking is why it creates outrage here, but not there? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1273 "2013-11-14T16:49:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > NHS is the worst example, but even in well functioning systems, when the government says “no”, you might as well start measuring for the coffin. Yet, remarkably, the people of the UK seem to have almost universally warm regard for NHS, and would consider anyone proposing its abolition to be barking mad. Why d’ya s’pose that could be, hmm? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1274 "2013-11-14T17:26:54Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Who pays when a patient declares a medical bankruptcy and defaults on a large hospital bill? Those costs get passed on to patients and their insurance companies who are paying. More people covered by health insurance means fewer defaults, and lower costs passed on to consumers means controlling health care costs. That’s ridiculous. Transferring a $10000 from an individual to the other paients (with or without insurance) did not reduce the $10000 at all. Costs weren’t redused just redistributed and in fact increased prices for all customers except one. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1275 "2013-11-14T17:40:35Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > This link has an even better summary than those, actually: [http://kaiserfamilyfoundation.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/8061-021.pdf](http://kaiserfamilyfoundation.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/8061-021.pdf) Am I reading that chart right? It looks like the cost containment 1. Reduces insurance admin costs. No guaranty that savings is passed on to consumer. 2,3) Medicare and medicaid restructuring. I don’t know how that helps a non-medicare/medicaid covered person even indirectly. 2. Gives biologic drug manufacturers 12 years of exclusivity before generics can be produced. Isn’t that similar to what we have now? 3. An improvement to the way to detect and handle fraud. I’m not sure how much fraud the new system will eliminate and the assumption is saving passed through to customers. The tort reform should help indirectly and transparency as well, but the issue has always been that care providers make up their prices. What if their acual costs had to be transparent as in MRI machine cost+maintainence vs number of uses so I have a baseline when they charge me $1200 to look at my knee. Mrs Cad was charged $3000 for a sleep study as in hook you up to a machine while someone watches you sleep. What was the hospital’s real cost for machine and lab monkey? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1276 "2013-11-14T18:05:58Z")
The Kaiser list is a nice list of the measures, but the other links more helpfully connect them to how they will cut costs. I think one of the big aspects you’re missing is how changes to Medicare affect overall healthcare costs. Because they are the biggest and most important player in the market, when they say they will pay more for hospitals with fewer readmissions, or won’t pay for MRIs that the research suggests don’t help with diagnosis (to offer two of dozens of example), that causes hospitals to do things differently for all patients. And again, for an overall view of these measures, see my prior post with the bolded headings. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1277 "2013-11-14T18:15:29Z")
I can understand the dilemma of the hospitals, the ethical and moral choices are ugly. They cannot turn away sick people from their emergency rooms, and it must tear at their hearts when they see a condition that has been allowed to advance to urgent levels when it could have been treated easily sooner. So they see insured patients as “free money”, they can overcharge and overtest. That isn’t right, it isn’t kosher, but it saves lives. They are forced to choose between “do no harm” and do a little harm to a nameless and faceless entity, and save lives, or, at least, prevent needless suffering. A life of suffering isn’t a life. I have no idea how many times this is not the case, how many times these things are done for no better purpose but to pad the profit margin for investors and stockholders. In my opinion, such people should be horsewhipped through the streets, but I am advised there are some legal complications to that approach. More’s the pity. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1278 "2013-11-14T23:17:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yet, remarkably, the people of the UK seem to have almost universally warm regard for NHS, and would consider anyone proposing its abolition to be barking mad. Why d’ya s’pose that could be, hmm? This is true of all health care systems in the world, even ours. People like what they have and don’t want to risk change. Thus the President’s promise. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1279 "2013-11-14T23:20:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > This is true of all health care systems in the world, even ours. People like what they have and don’t want to risk change. I’ll bet there are about 45 million people in America who would disagree with that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1280 "2013-11-14T23:35:38Z")
The other 250 million wanted to keep what was theirs. Of course, advocates of ACA say the new system will be better. Likewise, if Britain went to multi-payer, they’d be better. But people fear change, even though like the US, they see that it works all over the world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=63) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=65)