# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1381 "2013-11-18T16:43:38Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Have _you?_ :dubious: I have read—in totality—every bill I have been asked to vote for. One would think that would be standard operating procedure, no? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1382 "2013-11-18T16:47:03Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You’re slowly inching into more defensible territory as you qualify your statement. > > But don’t forget that your initial claim was “if you had a lifetime limit, no matter how high (mine was $2M) in the policy that you had before 2010, the policy would not be grandfathered in and would be canceled.” Again, quibbling on the level of “i’m not touching you” as you wave your hand half an inch away from my nose. If you prefer: If you had a lifetime limit, no matter how high (mine was $2M) in the policy that you had before 2010, the policy would not be grandfathered in and would have to be changed to comply or canceled. If it was changed to comply, it would not be the same policy. And you claiming that some policies change and stay same is bull. Those are not forced changes. When you force a policy to change, no, it is NOT the same policy. Still makes Pelosi’s (and Obama’s) statements lies. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1383 "2013-11-18T17:04:47Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > **Bone** : > > Terr is claiming the law required the cancellation of the 2010 plan. This can only be true in one of two senses: > > (1) The law requires the plan to drop lifetime limits, which makes it a different plan and therefore the equivalent of canceled; > > (2) Dropping the lifetime limits made the plan uneconomical and had to be canceled. > > Which of those claims do you think is true? > > The first is quibbling, since there are many other changes to the plan that don’t cause us to regard it as a different plan. The second is not categorically true, so at a minimum it is incorrect to regard the law as the sole cause of that result, and certainly does not rebut what Pelosi said in a way that you can call her a liar. I think both are true, but #1 is what makes it a lie. My understanding is that even grandfathered plans were required to remove lifetime limits (they could still enjoy grandfathered status after that, but rates would change accordingly). Am I incorrect? But really, isn’t this all quibbling? 🙂 It seems like pretty significant gymnastics to avoid the position that Obama (and it appears Pelosi, but I haven’t read any of the links, just what was quoted here) lied or deliberately misled in their statements. Plans change yes, and different people will evaluate what is significant to them to consider the plan to be changed or different in some way. Lifetime limits are pretty significant and I think it’s reasonable to believe that if that facet is changed then it is a different plan. The ACA specifically calls these out so saying lifetime limits is a significant factor seems reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1384 "2013-11-18T17:27:20Z")
Terr … your Insurance Company will have to pay all pediatric dental costs … and if you’re not paying the premiums for such, the Company will lose money. What the ACA doesn’t say is that the Company MUST continue money-losing policies. Maybe if we knew what the actual monthly cost was of your old plan was, we would understand you’re position better … what’s included, what’s excluded … is this “in-network” or “out-network” … what’s your capital worth … do you smoke pot … That two million doesn’t go as far as it did 10 years ago, you do sound like a person who would hate to see the tax-payers cover the other 3 million. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1385 "2013-11-18T17:29:49Z")
Wikipedia shows that 60 senators and 219 congressmen are lying, and that 65,915,796 voters thinks thats okay. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1386 "2013-11-18T17:36:25Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Maybe if we knew what the actual monthly cost was of your old plan was, we would understand you’re position better [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16821210&postcount=700](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16821210&postcount=700) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1387 "2013-11-18T17:38:27Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > … do you smoke pot … . Whoa, hold up there, what? Christ Jesus, **Terr** , say it ain’t so! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1388 "2013-11-18T17:41:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > When you force a policy to change, no, it is NOT the same policy. Yeah, I think that’s pretty much the core of your argument, and it doesn’t make any sense. Whether a change in a policy causes it to be a “different” policy has nothing to do with the cause of that change. You’re selectively defining “different policy” as “one that Obamacare caused.” Obviously, you can win every debate if you reduce your premises to tautologies through absurd definitions. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1389 "2013-11-18T17:49:02Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Yeah, I think that’s pretty much the core of your argument, and it doesn’t make any sense. > > Whether a change in a policy causes it to be a “different” policy has nothing to do with the cause of that change. It definitely does. > [@](#): > > You’re selectively defining “different policy” as “one that Obamacare caused.” No. I am defining “different policy” as “changed when forced by law”. And you’re twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to pretend it isn’t a different policy in that circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1390 "2013-11-18T17:50:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I have read—in totality—every bill I have been asked to vote for. So that would be No. > [@](#): > > One would think that would be standard operating procedure, no? For someone who regularly complains, factually or not, about others not doing so? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1391 "2013-11-18T17:51:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. I am defining “different policy” as “changed when forced by law”. And you’re twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to pretend it isn’t a different policy in that circumstance. That’s not an argument, it’s just ad hominem. Which is what you’re reduced to, because arguing that what makes a plan different is whether it was caused to be different by the law is completely nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1392 "2013-11-18T17:52:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Premium: $890 > Tell me again how I am so much better off under Obamacare. If your premiums are more than 8% of your income, then you’re not required to get health insurance. I’m assuming an ACA compliant policy costs more, so you’re making better than $134,000 per year … my heart bleeds for you. Why don’t you just pay retail for medical service, it’s a lot cheaper in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1393 "2013-11-18T17:58:32Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > My understanding is that even grandfathered plans were required to remove lifetime limits (they could still enjoy grandfathered status after that, but rates would change accordingly). Am I incorrect? That’s a correct statement. If Pelosi had said “nothing in Obamacare caused an insurance plan to change in any way,” then it would be a lie for that reason. Or if Pelosi had said “nothing in Obamacare will influence some insurers to cancel some plans,” then it would be a lie. But she didn’t say either of those things. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1394 "2013-11-18T18:02:07Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > That’s not an argument, it’s just ad hominem. Which is what you’re reduced to, because arguing that what makes a plan different is whether it was caused to be different by the law is completely nonsensical. Yours is not an argument it is just closing your eyes, shaking your head and repeating “no, no, no”, because of your agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1395 "2013-11-18T18:03:41Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > If your premiums are more than 8% of your income, then you’re not required to get health insurance. So your argument is “your insurance will cost more because of Obamacare - why don’t you just live without insurance”? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1396 "2013-11-18T18:04:06Z")
My state has fully embraced Hussian-O’s suggestion about allowing you to keep your policy … maybe the problem is in Annapolis. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1397 "2013-11-18T18:05:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yours is not an argument it is just closing your eyes, shaking your head and repeating “no, no, no”, because of your agenda. Again, you fail to address the substance. When come back, bring argument. Here’s mine again, in case you’re not clear: You are arbitrarily defining “new policy” or “different policy” as one with a change forced by law. This makes no sense, since whether a change is substantial enough to warrant calling the thing a new policy or new plan depends on the nature of the change, not what caused it. And this distinction matters because while Obamacare did require some changes to all policies–something Obama talked about a lot and that many now conveniently ignore–this is not the same as canceling policies. It changes them. And some insurers reaction to the change is to cancel them instead of increasing premiums, etc. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1398 "2013-11-18T18:08:51Z")
Yes, just live without insurance … because you obviously don’t want the tax-payer to pay the short-falls in your coverage. Dude, you lose both your legs in a car accident, no more $135,000 a year income, you’re bankrupt anyway. That health insurance policy only protects the hospital, not you. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1399 "2013-11-18T18:10:15Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Again, you fail to address the substance. Kinda like you did. > [@](#): > > Here’s mine again, in case you’re not clear: You are arbitrarily defining “new policy” or “different policy” as one with a change forced by law. You’re arbitrarily defining a policy that has been forced to change by law as “same policy”. > [@](#): > > this is not the same as canceling policies. It changes them. And some insurers reaction to the change is to cancel them instead of increasing premiums, etc. And my forcing you to buy a new engine for your car if you wanted to continue using it didn’t make you sell or junk your car. You did that voluntarily. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/1400 "2013-11-18T18:14:47Z")
LOL. “No, you are?” That’s the argument I get back. Ohhh-kay then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=69) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=71)