# Oops. Looks like we were lied to about Obamacare after all. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534 "2013-10-29T07:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/141 "2013-10-29T17:53:05Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > I guess this thread makes me have a question for Adaher, Magellan, Terr, and the other folks who are gleefully jumping on the “We were lied to” bandwagon. Are you actually concerned for those people who are having to change policies or are you just seizing on another opportunity to make political hay against Obama? > > Because the “Obama is the sukkor”/“ACA is the anti-Christ” schtick is getting old. And I’m not really seeing any suggestions for actually improving health care coming from that camp. I think the ACA is a flawed but sincere attempt to improve health care for most Americans. So when you say that we were lied to about Obamacare – for what purpose? To maliciously drain money from the pockets of innocent Americans? Do you really think that this was their motivation? I think their motive was: we believe this is a good idea, so we’ll say whatever we need to say to get it passed, because, frankly, we know better than these poor schlubs who, likely as not, will vote against their own best interests. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/142 "2013-10-29T17:54:57Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > I guess this thread makes me have a question for Adaher, Magellan, Terr, and the other folks who are gleefully jumping on the “We were lied to” bandwagon. Are you actually concerned for those people who are having to change policies or are you just seizing on another opportunity to make political hay against Obama? I think you have to understand the context of what’s going on. People like us said that ACA would cause job losses, people to lose their insurance, rationing of care, and blow up the deficit. We were basically called liars by our government. So this more about vindication than vindictiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/143 "2013-10-29T17:57:34Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Because the “Obama is the sukkor”/“ACA is the anti-Christ” schtick is getting old. And I’m not really seeing any suggestions for actually improving health care coming from that camp. I think the ACA is a flawed but sincere attempt to improve health care for most Americans. So when you say that we were lied to about Obamacare – for what purpose? To maliciously drain money from the pockets of innocent Americans? Do you really think that this was their motivation? Is this the first time you’ve encountered lying politicians? It’s very simple. Obama believed that his approach to health care was the best approach overall. Other people disagreed. Obama’s goal was to rally the public behind his position. There are winners and losers in every system, and Obama tried to convince the public that winner/loser ratio would be a lot higher than it was actually going to be. He himself thought even the higher number of losers was OK, because he thought the advantages of his plan outweighed this. But others might have disagreed so he shaded the truth. This is SOP for politicians, and Obama in particular is a past master of doublespeak. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/144 "2013-10-29T18:01:14Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > I guess this thread makes me have a question for Adaher, Magellan, Terr, and the other folks who are gleefully jumping on the “We were lied to” bandwagon. Are you actually concerned for those people who are having to change policies or are you just seizing on another opportunity to make political hay against Obama? I am concerned for me. I have to change my insurance to a crappier one with higher premiums, higher deductible, higher out of pocket and smaller doctor pool. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/145 "2013-10-29T18:06:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I would KILL for premiums that are only $153/mo. Mine are 5x that. Is your plan any good? > > But I’ve agreed with Bill Maher all along on this thing-- it’s a great big blow job to the insurance companies. Force every single American to buy your product or pay a fine. What’s not to love about that? If you’re an insurance company, that is. The insurance companies are certainly going to lose on having to cover some people they wouldn’t insure before, but with all the millions of new policies I expect it will be a big net positive effect on their income. $105 a month was a lot for me to afford, $153 is a lot more. I’m a ~40 year old male, no health conditions, non-smoker. I make just enough so I don’t think I will get any tax break on the premiums. I assume my plan is good, it’s one my ex-wife picked out and she works with health insurance in HR. It’s an Anthem plan and they are a major health insurance company, it had prescription drug benefits and a fairly high deductible since I never go to the doctor. I got onto the [healthcare.gov](http://healthcare.gov) marketplace last night (they let you look at plans now without requiring registration) and saw one or two plans a bit cheaper cheaper but they didn’t list any details, even the deductibles. Most or all were Anthem HMO plans, I guess Anthem is chosen/dominant in VA. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/146 "2013-10-29T18:08:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think you have to understand the context of what’s going on. People like us said that ACA would cause job losses, people to lose their insurance, rationing of care, and blow up the deficit. We were basically called liars by our government. > > So this more about vindication than vindictiveness. On the just done attempt to defeat Obamacare the Republicans made the government waste 24 Billion dollars. I do not think this complaint will give them vindication. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/147 "2013-10-29T18:09:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am concerned for me. I have to change my insurance to a crappier one with higher premiums, higher deductible, higher out of pocket and smaller doctor pool. Maybe all of us, from across the political spectrum, can get behind true UHC now. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/148 "2013-10-29T18:09:55Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > I guess this thread makes me have a question for Adaher, Magellan, Terr, and the other folks who are gleefully jumping on the “We were lied to” bandwagon. Are you actually concerned for those people who are having to change policies or are you just seizing on another opportunity to make political hay against Obama? > > Because the “Obama is the sukkor”/“ACA is the anti-Christ” schtick is getting old. And I’m not really seeing any suggestions for actually improving health care coming from that camp. I think the ACA is a flawed but sincere attempt to improve health care for most Americans. So when you say that we were lied to about Obamacare – for what purpose? To maliciously drain money from the pockets of innocent Americans? Do you really think that this was their motivation? It matters to me because I’m personally the piece of the pie that might be affected by these disingenuous statements. I’m 29 years old, healthy, and buy my own high-deductible health plan. It hasn’t happened yet, but I’m watching the mail every day for when Humana will send me a cancellation notification. I really hope it doesn’t happen, but I’m pretty pessimistic that it will stick around given that it is a better deal for me than anything offered on the exchanges. The closest option available on the exchange for me will entail a 50% increase in monthly premium and $1k more in yearly deductible. I don’t give a shit about what color jersey Obama has on or who gets points on the political scoreboard. Hopefully my generation will be able to get the American system a little closer to what the rest of the 1st world has. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/149 "2013-10-29T18:17:47Z")
ACA is closer to what the rest of the first world has. Contrary to popular belief, models like the NHS are the outliers. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/150 "2013-10-29T18:26:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t agree with all that. if the implementation continues to be botched, then yeah, things can get a lot worse, but assuming reasonable implementation, a lot of things do get better: > > 1. More people covered > 2. More comprehensive coverage > 3. Many will save money due to subsidies in most cases, community rating in others > 4. ACA has many ideas for reducing health care costs which may or may not work > > My beef with the law is the dishonesty used to sell it, which would be less galling if the supporters of the law hadn’t called the critics liars and implied that nothing they say should be believed. My other beef is the unnecessary complexity that has caused insurance premiums to be higher than necessary. Assuming reasonable implementation? I’m not holding out hope for that. More people covered? The question is are more people covered because they want to be or because they have to be? How many is “many” that will save money? What about the people spending more money on health care & insurance? Reducing health care costs how? Will that saving be passed on to consumers or insurance companies? ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/151 "2013-10-29T18:35:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > ACA is closer to what the rest of the first world has. Contrary to popular belief, models like the NHS are the outliers. I don’t really care about what form it takes. I’m thinking more about how you don’t often hear about people in Germany going bankrupt due to medical bills or losing coverage because they lost their job at Megacorp. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/152 "2013-10-29T18:46:07Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > I guess in the discussion about whether or not we are being ruthlessly shafted by a heartless administration, the question is, what constitutes a “significant” change that obviates grandfathering? How big a deductible change? Greater than inflation? Nice, this was a question that was left hanging since **Fotheringay-Phipps** questioning my logical assumption that coverage had to get worse for it to lose its grandfathered status. Here’s the answer from [from hhs.gov:](http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2010pres/06/20100614e.html) > [@](#): > > Grandfathered health plans will be able to make routine changes to their policies and maintain their status. These routine changes include cost adjustments to keep pace with medical inflation, adding new benefits, making modest adjustments to existing benefits, voluntarily adopting new consumer protections under the new law, or making changes to comply with State or other Federal laws. Premium changes are not taken into account when determining whether or not a plan is grandfathered. > > Plans will lose their grandfathered status if they choose to make significant changes that reduce benefits or increase costs to consumers. So, in other words, contrary to everything **Terr** posted about his insurance on page 2. This is all just a lot of flipping out because people have to accommodate changes and it’s irritating. It’s understandable but these people are definitely not getting the shaft in this. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/153 "2013-10-29T18:52:07Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Nice, this was a question that was left hanging since **Fotheringay-Phipps** questioning my logical assumption that coverage had to get worse for it to lose its grandfathered status. Here’s the answer from [from hhs.gov:](http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2010pres/06/20100614e.html) > > So, in other words, contrary to everything **Terr** posted about his insurance on page 2. The press release you cited is from 2010. Things have changed since then. [So, if an insurer changed a premium or a deductible in 2013, the plan is no longer grandfathered under Obamacare and can’t be renewed in 2014.](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/white-house-rejects-nbc-obamacare-report-99001.html#ixzz2j8efx2T4) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/154 "2013-10-29T18:53:51Z")
Always the usual suspects. Always. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/155 "2013-10-29T19:26:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s a very mixed bag for the insurance companies. They get a lot of new customers, but the new customers may well turn out to be just the ones they are trying to avoid, which would make them lose a lot of money. And there is to be more oversight of the rates. > > [IIRC, the insurance companies ultimately decided they were in favor of the ACA, but they would have been measuring it against alternative types of reform, not against the status quo. Plus, there’s a lot of horsetrading in these bills, e.g. “we’ll throwin this provision that you want if you agree to lobby for the overall bill”, and so on.] In rhe long run who would you bet is going to get the legislation they want- you and me or the big insurance comp ies? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/156 "2013-10-29T19:34:39Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > I don’t really care about what form it takes. > > I’m thinking more about how you don’t often hear about people in Germany going bankrupt due to medical bills or losing coverage because they lost their job at Megacorp. And ACA solves that problem. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/157 "2013-10-29T19:36:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And ACA solves that problem. Nah. Your country just has too much idiotic objection to trying something that _will_. ACA is a stopgap. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/158 "2013-10-29T19:37:10Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Always the usual suspects. Always. Let’s try to keep the discussion on track, please. This sort of thing isn’t helpful. No warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/159 "2013-10-29T19:39:43Z")
> [@](#): > > …ACA is a stopgap… No, no, no! We promised not to press for anything sensible, likes single payer plans, if we just get this one thing! Honest, we won’t come back again and ask for more! See these big brown innocent eyes? Total sincerity. Really, just this ACA, and we give up. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534/160 "2013-10-29T19:47:36Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > I don’t, as there are obviously many projections coming in on both sides. Plus, as I tried to explain, the indirect costs of our shitty healthcare system are practically impossible to calculate. For example, employee sick days cost our economy billions of dollars per year ($576 billion according to Forbes). If employees have better overall health due to preventative care, and the number of sick days drops, that will help the economy by some amount. How do you predict the amount though? How do you predict how many fewer foreclosures there will be when people don’t aren’t being financially wiped out by an illness? > > That’s why I said “if it works” it will be cheaper. I think that goes without saying; since the intent of the law is to lower healthcare costs, “if it works,” it will lower healthcare costs. So, if it lowers health care costs it will lower health care costs? Oh, okay. Seriously, you’re right in that the ramifications of the ACA are very difficult to calculate. So, since you admit that, it might be helpful to not make claims that imply the contrary. > [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > For me, the calculations really don’t matter that much. I would be willing to pay more to have a healthcare system that actually took care of everyone in the country. But I know everyone else isn’t like me, and reasonable people can disagree. But what I don’t understand is why reasonable people can’t see both sides, and bitch constantly about the costs of Obamacare, when they weren’t constantly bitching about the cost of the healthcare system before. It’s like they think they were never paying anything for uninsured peoples’ health care, and now they are suddenly having to pick up the bill. That’s just not the case. One question is how much more will the bill be? While each incident of people using emergency rooms like clinic will create a savings, we don’t know how many more visits to doctors will result. As far as you be willing to pay more, that’s great. I would too. But how much more are you willing to pay? 10% more? 75%? 200%? 500%? For some it may be simply be the appetite they have for wanting to help others. For others, though, they’re going to have to find that extra X hundreds or thousands of dollars nut changing the way they live. Is that right? Especially for people who may have voted for Dems in large part for the ACA bill that, they were promised, would allow them to keep the plans they’ve had.? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oops-looks-like-we-were-lied-to-about-obamacare-after-all/672534.md?page=9)