# Oopsie! "Dead" Man Still Alive! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 27, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923 "2005-01-27T15:05:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LorieSmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@LorieSmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LorieSmurf)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923/21 "2005-01-30T05:35:23Z")
Something confuses me here. Doesn’t it have to be an doctor to actually declare a person dead? EMT’s “declaring” a person dead sounds like a legal, not to mention an ethical, no-no. Sounds like more than the EMTs need to be investigated. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923/22 "2005-01-30T09:53:16Z")
I am so sad to hear that he died. His family has to start grieving all over again. What torture. I found a story online (Jan 27) that said he was improving. Damn. This sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923/23 "2005-01-31T15:44:00Z")
> [@LorieSmurf](#): > > Something confuses me here. Doesn’t it have to be an doctor to actually declare a person dead? EMT’s “declaring” a person dead sounds like a legal, not to mention an ethical, no-no. Sounds like more than the EMTs need to be investigated. I think you’re right on that, although I don’t think they have to treat someone they think is dead as if he’s alive. They just can’t do the formal pronouncement. When my FIL died, the nurse said he was gone and all, but the legal pronunciation didn’t come til the main hospice lady showed up. ---
**Author:** ![Hirundo82](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/919ad9/32.png) [@Hirundo82](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirundo82)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923/24 "2005-01-31T17:22:16Z")
> [@LorieSmurf](#): > > Something confuses me here. Doesn’t it have to be an doctor to actually declare a person dead? EMT’s “declaring” a person dead sounds like a legal, not to mention an ethical, no-no. Sounds like more than the EMTs need to be investigated. In Virginia at least, EMS providers need a physician’s permission to pronounce a patient, but the physician does not need to actually need to see the patient. I have pronounced many patients with a physician’s blessing (after I am certain the patient is good and dead). In fact, if we can contact the patient’s primary physician and get them to agree to sign the death certificate we can send the patient directly to the funeral home–they are never seen by a physician. ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923/25 "2005-01-31T18:25:21Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > And as of the 6:00 news, (1) Mr. Green is now dead – for sure > [@AngelicGemma](#): > > I bet that’s what they said last time… But this time, they cut off his head to be sure he \*stays \* dead. ---
**Author:** ![harmless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/2acd7d/32.png) [@harmless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmless)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923/26 "2005-01-31T18:51:03Z")
> [@Uvula Donor](#): > > But this time, they cut off his head to be sure he \*stays \* dead. They’d better bury in salt at least 300 yards away from the rest of him. You know, to be _real_ sure. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923/27 "2005-02-01T22:31:56Z")
First off, [here](http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031780569000&path=!localnews&s=1037645509099) is the latest news. Two medics have been fired by Franklin County and had their licenses suspended by the state. Next, > [@LorieSmurf](#): > > Something confuses me here. Doesn’t it have to be an doctor to actually declare a person dead? EMT’s “declaring” a person dead sounds like a legal, not to mention an ethical, no-no. Sounds like more than the EMTs need to be investigate In most cases, a doctor does declare someone dead. It’s done through online Medical Control, where a medic (or EMT) consults with the doctor over the phone. Also, it happens all the time. I’ve done it before. In some cases resuscitation is likely to be futile (asystole with unknown downtime, etc), why should we give the family false hope and unnecessary bills by transporting the patient to the hospital when we know they’ll just be pronounced dead in the ER? In regards to additional training, in my opinion, they didn’t do it right the first time. From the sounds of it, he definitely should have had an EKG done and potentially some other treatments before being pronounced. For the curious, here’s the relevant parts of the Denver Metro Paramedic Protocol for field pronouncements: > [@](#): > > \ > B. All patients found pulseless and apneic are to be resuscitated, except patients found in any of the following conditions: > [ol] > [li]Decapitation[/li][li]Decomposition[/li][li]Third-degree burns over more than 90% of the total body surface area[/li][li]Dependent lividity or rigor mortis[/li][li]A valid CPR Directive present with the patient[/li][li]Evidence of massive blunt head, chest, or abdominal trauma[/li][/ol] > Special Considerations in Resuscitation Decisions: > All cases described below require contact with a base physician to approve termination of treatment. > A. Blunt trauma: Resuscitative efforts may be withheld or terminated in patients found apneic and pulseless with: > [list=1] > [li]Blunt trauma to the head, neck, or torso and[/li][li]No spontaneous pulse or respirations following appropriate medical interventions, which include, for example: ensuring a patent airway or chest decompression. (The majority of injuries sustained by these patients are not compatible with life. “Appropriate” interventions will vary and should be directed by guidance from the base).[/li]\ > D. ALS personnel should document asystole for 10 seconds in at least 2 leads prior to withholding or terminating resuscitative efforts. However, base physicians and field providers must use discretion when considering the need for a rhythm strip (i.e. monitor strips are not necessary in patients found decapitated, decomposed, or with dependent lividity or rigor mortis). So, had this been my call, we would definitely have done an EKG, opened the airway, and contacted a physician. Knowing our medical control docs, we probably would have decompressed the chest as well before getting a pronouncement. St. Urho Paramedic ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923/28 "2005-02-01T22:45:57Z")
> [@Sengkelat](#): > > 30 minutes later, what? At the stroke of midnight the patient began devouring brains? Come on, you have to finish these sorts of stories! I wanna know too! ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923/29 "2005-02-01T22:52:47Z")
> [@harmless](#): > > They’d better bury in salt at least 300 yards away from the rest of him. > You know, to be real sure. They’ll have to nuke him from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![harmless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/2acd7d/32.png) [@harmless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmless)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923/30 "2005-02-01T22:59:00Z")
:smack: You are right. I forgot about random drunk teens with nothing better to do than running around in their undies, stirring up trouble and reassembling corpses. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923/31 "2005-02-14T13:26:25Z")
The “dead man” is, indeed, still alive, though unconscious and paralyzed: [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6954586/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6954586/) His neighbor believes “The Almighty” has something to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923/32 "2005-02-14T13:34:20Z")
And, of course, Channel 5’s story was in error. Gee, you think maybe I could con a Mod. into moving this over into GD as evidence of resurrection? :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oopsie-dead-man-still-alive/286923.md?page=1)