# Open carry of firearms **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 7, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118 "2011-07-07T02:06:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/41 "2011-07-08T02:47:28Z")
> [@HardlySanguine](#): > > How likely is it that you’d be charged with Brandishing (assuming it exists, I’m getting this from the TeeVee) if you’re just walking down the street with a gun? Your word against the cop’s that you weren’t doing anything menacing? If you are carrying your weapon in accordance with the laws of the state, county, and locality that you’re carrying in, the chances of you getting charged with brandishing are exceptionally small. The chances of you getting hassled by the police, however, are much larger, particularly if you’re carrying in a gun-unfriendly jurisdiction. Once it’s all sorted out, if you’re legal they have to let you go about your business, and if they charge you they open themselves up to a lot of legal issues. There are many stories of people open carrying and getting stopped and hassled by the police. As **Chronos** said elsewhere in this thread, a lot of people _want_ to be noticed because they’re making a political point. Those are the people that you typically hear about, because they are actively seeking a “confrontation” with law enforcement so that they can “educate” them on open carry. I wouldn’t ever twist the tiger’s tail like that, but that’s me. And even if you’re not doing it to make a point, they can stop you and run your record every 50 feet along your path until they get bored with doing it, claiming they got a “man with a gun” call from a concerned old lady. It’s your time that they’re wasting, so it’s your call. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/42 "2011-07-08T11:16:20Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > …they can stop you and run your record every 50 feet along your path until they get bored with doing it, claiming they got a “man with a gun” call from a concerned old lady. It’s your time that they’re wasting, so it’s your call. If you’re in a state where open carry is not illegal, the police are not allowed to detain you for the mere act of openly carrying a handgun. In order to detain you, the police must suspect you have committed a _crime_. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/43 "2011-07-08T12:34:57Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > If you’re in a state where open carry is not illegal, the police are not allowed to detain you for the mere act of openly carrying a handgun. In order to detain you, the police must suspect you have committed a _crime_. Sure. And the police are not supposed to lie, give you speeding tickets on “quota day” when you’ve been driving _under_ the speed limit, or randomly search cars and steal things from them and their drivers because “they smelled marijuana” from a car driving on the other side of a divided highway from them. Police harassment of law-abiding firearms owners is almost institutionalized in some areas of the US, and open carry is seen by some as “open challenge” to their sense of authority. You better believe the police engage in illegal harassment of the open carrying public. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/44 "2011-07-08T13:17:36Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Sure. And the police are not supposed to lie, give you speeding tickets on “quota day” when you’ve been driving _under_ the speed limit, or randomly search cars and steal things from them and their drivers because “they smelled marijuana” from a car driving on the other side of a divided highway from them. > > Police harassment of law-abiding firearms owners is almost institutionalized in some areas of the US, and open carry is seen by some as “open challenge” to their sense of authority. You better believe the police engage in illegal harassment of the open carrying public. It is true some LEOs engage in unethical (if not illegal) behaviors. But it should also be mentioned that it is getting more and more difficult for them to get away with it, as video cameras seem to be everywhere nowadays. And as I mentioned above, I \*always \*carry a digital voice recorder when I open carry. I have yet to be harassed for openly carrying my handgun. If I ever am, the LEO will soon learn the error of his/her ways. ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/45 "2011-07-08T13:32:09Z")
I would be careful about having a recording device on you. Some states do not allow taping other parties without their consent, and some other states do not allow taping law enforcement officers at all. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/46 "2011-07-08T21:22:28Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It is true some LEOs engage in unethical (if not illegal) behaviors. But it should also be mentioned that it is getting more and more difficult for them to get away with it, as video cameras seem to be everywhere nowadays. And as I mentioned above, I \*always \*carry a digital voice recorder when I open carry. I have yet to be harassed for openly carrying my handgun. If I ever am, the LEO will soon learn the error of his/her ways. That’s great. I’m glad you’re not hassled. I’m glad you’re carrying in a gun-friendly jurisdiction. But I wasn’t talking about you, specifically. I was talking about people who carry in gun-unfriendly jurisdictions. I guarantee you that if you carry in Philadelphia, completely legal, you will still be talking to a cop sooner or later. If your time is worth it to you, fine. If not, just conceal the weapon and save yourself the trouble. The people that don’t conceal typically want to confront the police. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/47 "2011-07-08T22:14:18Z")
Specifically to the OP, I live in Virginia and Virginia is an open carry state. If I can legally own the weapon, I can legally carry it in public without any special permit. I do see non-cops/non-feds carrying a handgun in a holster on their belt from time to time, but I suspect that most people who carry have applied for a CCW and carry it concealed rather than open. That said, I’ve even seen people carrying other weapons like rifles, large knives, swords, and such things. Hell, I know someone who wore a sword as part of a Halloween costume one year and, had I not stopped celebrating it before I had the idea, I would have done so several years ago as well. That said, it’s not something I see very often in Northern Virginia, as it’s fairly suburban, but when I lived in more rural areas, I would see it with more frequency. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/48 "2011-07-09T03:36:28Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > That’s great. I’m glad you’re not hassled. I’m glad you’re carrying in a gun-friendly jurisdiction. But I wasn’t talking about you, specifically. I was talking about people who carry in gun-unfriendly jurisdictions. I guarantee you that if you carry in Philadelphia, completely legal, you will still be talking to a cop sooner or later. If your time is worth it to you, fine. If not, just conceal the weapon and save yourself the trouble. The people that don’t conceal typically want to confront the police. Likewise, I guarantee that anyone who legally open carries in my entire county will very quickly find themselves in the back of a police car for an hour or longer while the cops run and re-run and re-re-run every possible background check known to humankind. Then they’ll release you with plenty of veiled threats about “who the fuck do you think you are”, they’ll let you go a block, then suddenly you’ll be back in the car again. You might also find your legally owned and carried gun “temporarily confiscated for testing” because “it might have been used in a crime”, and would probably never see it again until you pay $$$ for a lawyer to sue for it back. After all, it’s not the cop’s money that will be defending them, it’s your tax dollars. And while you’re sitting in the back of the car listening to Police Hits 101 on the car radio, don’t even think to tell them that what they’re doing is “illegal.” That…won’t go over very well. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/49 "2011-07-09T13:20:50Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Likewise, I guarantee that anyone who legally open carries in my entire county will very quickly find themselves in the back of a police car for an hour or longer while the cops run and re-run and re-re-run every possible background check known to humankind. > > … > And while you’re sitting in the back of the car listening to Police Hits 101 on the car radio, don’t even think to tell them that what they’re doing is “illegal.” That…won’t go over very well. Wow. Where the Hell is _this??_ I need to put that place on my “Do Not Go” list on general principle. ---
**Author:** ![Wizard\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Wizard\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wizard_One)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/50 "2011-07-10T20:33:01Z")
Paul, somewhat accurate, but a bit off. Pennsylvania law DOES permit open carry, but you’re going to meet every police officer in the county when you try it. AND be discouraged from it. “Weapons of war” are class three firearms, you CAN legally purchase, own and use them, WITH a class three permit, which means we’re essentially getting a SSBI investigation, neighbor and friends interviewed. BUT, as you said, hunting is restricted in Pennsylvania to certain types of weapons at certain months. And only the insane would try defend their home with an anti-tank missile! THAT said, Pennsylvania is a “Shall Issue” state, which means, lacking a reason to NOT grant a permit for concealed carry, the state SHALL issue a CCW permit. That was courtesy of the Philadelphia Police, who made it nearly impossible to acquire said permit for a time and ended up in federal court. That said, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh are cities of the first class, hence have more restrictive firearms codes than any other cities, per state statute. Philadelphia and open carry are natural enemies on another front too, as there are MANY schools in the city, one is within the federally protected zones around schools pretty much everywhere in the city. You can have a weapon in your home, but cannot open carry or concealed carry within that zone. How’s it going in Qatar, these days? Was in the Doha area for nearly 5 years. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Almost any scenario is legal at someplace or another in the USA. It is a huge and quite varied country. > > I presume you are not familiar with American gun regulations. Let’s start with the basics. “Weapons of war” are banned in a practical sense. You cannot hunt deal with a flamethrower. You cannot defend your home with a bazooka. > > Next, we need to draw a line between handguns, which are regulated in most places, and long guns which are generally less-regulated. > > Handguns are considered most dangerous and so are (usually) the most controlled. Oddly localities have reasoned from this premise to opposite conclusions. > > In Pennsylvania, a person with the regular old gun permit may open carry in any urban area. (This drives the Philadelphia police nuts.) The idea is open carry is more honest and less dangerous. Other states forbid open carry, but allow concealed carry on the theory that concealed carry is less likely to upset the public. > > Does that help? ---
**Author:** ![Wizard\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Wizard\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wizard_One)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/51 "2011-07-10T20:42:27Z")
I lived in Philadelphia for 20 years and change, I’ve walked down the street carrying my rifle and pistol quite a few times with zero problem. Of course, it’s hard to USE that rifle or pistol if you DO NOT carry them to and from the car to get to where you’re hunting or to and from the range. And yes, I was too cheap to buy a case for the rifle. ONE time, a cop came by while I was going to the car. He simply asked, headed up hunting, huh? Got a good spot? I simply replied, Yep! Don’t even need to load the thing, most of the time. We both had a laugh and I put them into the car, broke the actions open and went hunting, bringing back the usual nothing (damned yahoo’s in the woods scare the deer into the next state). > [@HardlySanguine](#): > > How likely is it that you’d be charged with Brandishing (assuming it exists, I’m getting this from the TeeVee) if you’re just walking down the street with a gun? Your word against the cop’s that you weren’t doing anything menacing? ---
**Author:** ![Wizard\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Wizard\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wizard_One)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/52 "2011-07-10T21:12:52Z")
Federal law defines brandished as, “with reference to a dangerous weapon (including a firearm) means that all or part of the weapon was displayed, or the presence of the weapon was otherwise made known to another person, in order to intimidate that person, regardless of whether the weapon was directly visible to that person. Accordingly, although the dangerous weapon does not have to be directly visible, the weapon must be present.” (18 USCS Appx § 1B1.1) Therefor, the PRESENCE of the weapon is not brandishing, but intimidation must be present. > [@HardlySanguine](#): > > How likely is it that you’d be charged with Brandishing (assuming it exists, I’m getting this from the TeeVee) if you’re just walking down the street with a gun? Your word against the cop’s that you weren’t doing anything menacing? ---
**Author:** ![Wizard\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Wizard\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wizard_One)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/53 "2011-07-10T21:18:25Z")
I find it interesting that you’d wish to cause significant damage to a motor vehicle over a parking spot. I DO carry a sword cane, though it’s more of a conversation piece. I have a concealed carry permit for a handgun as well, for personal protection. For, criminals do NOT obey the law and are well known to cause harm. I HAVE drawn my weapon several times in self defense, fortunately, the criminal decided to not complete drawing his weapon and opted to let it fall to the ground, then await the police, who I summoned on my cell phone. So, paranoia, it is not. Practical living in a lousy neighborhood and not wanting to abandon a home with a mortgage. Open carry in those instances would have worked against me, as the criminal would have simply shot me at a greater distance, before I noticed their approach, then robbed my bloody corpse. For open or concealed carry, I’d opt for open carry when hunting, mostly due to the bulk of the winter clothing (safety orange, of course) making the drawing of the pistol for dispatch, should my shot not immediately kill the animal. > [@Michael\_of\_Lucan](#): > > As a foreigner, I find it weird that any sane person _wants_ to carry a weapon openly on a city street, and even more weird that he might have a legal right to do it. The level of public paranoia (or some other insanity) implied by that right is frankly frightening. > > If you’re allowed to carry a pistol, why not a lance, a cross-bow or a sword, which are more limited in their effect? I’d probably choose a mace (the old-fashioned club, not the spray). There’s something satisfying about using a mace on the car which took my parking spot. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/54 "2011-07-11T00:10:11Z")
Of course, intimidation is hard to define precisely, and even harder to prove. In practice, I imagine that would come down to the sentiment of the court. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/55 "2011-07-11T02:27:03Z")
Actually, **Wizard One** , Philadelphia is the only city of the first class in Pennsylvania, and Pennsylvania has preemption so locales can’t simply make up laws on their own. The one law that applies to Philadelphia and nowhere else is the one that requires a concealed carry permit under any circumstances, even to open carry. > [@Chronos](#): > > Of course, intimidation is hard to define precisely, and even harder to prove. In practice, I imagine that would come down to the sentiment of the court. If the police are determined to charge you with a crime for carrying openly where legal, they’d better be able to prove some sort of intimidation or it’ll never get to the courts. And when it does, if the judge tosses the charges it becomes lawsuit fodder. The police rarely do that. It’s far easier to make the person’s life extremely difficult through more accepted means. Dissuasion by coercion, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![Wizard\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Wizard\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wizard_One)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118/56 "2011-07-11T03:03:23Z")
My error. I remember at one point, Pittsburgh was being considered as a first class city. But, the population growth didn’t meet expectations, so the population is still too low. The exception IS for cities of the first class and Pittsburgh though for concealed and open carry, I remember reading the actual statute when I got my CCW permit. No need to run into trouble by lack of due diligence on my part! 🙂 Hence, the old consideration that never made it, plus that statute must have ran them together in my head. What surprised me was that Harrisburg wasn’t included in the statute. I’m guessing their either wasn’t much lobbying for it OR the commonwealth representatives didn’t want that rule to apply to their place of work… Thanks for the catch, I HATE putting out inaccurate information! > [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Actually, **Wizard One** , Philadelphia is the only city of the first class in Pennsylvania, and Pennsylvania has preemption so locales can’t simply make up laws on their own. The one law that applies to Philadelphia and nowhere else is the one that requires a concealed carry permit under any circumstances, even to open carry. > > If the police are determined to charge you with a crime for carrying openly where legal, they’d better be able to prove some sort of intimidation or it’ll never get to the courts. And when it does, if the judge tosses the charges it becomes lawsuit fodder. > > The police rarely do that. It’s far easier to make the person’s life extremely difficult through more accepted means. Dissuasion by coercion, if you will. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-of-firearms/588118.md?page=2)