# Open carry question **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 19, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184 "2016-12-19T21:40:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/141 "2016-12-26T05:28:41Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t demand anything. I simply was curious on how carriers derived their risk vs rewards when deciding to carry a gun around in public. “I might need it” and “It’s my right” are pretty much all I have read. Both of which are laughable to me, but I still support your right to do it. Sure, but “I might need it,” is exactly why police officers carry firearms, too. Of course, that’s a somewhat dismissive characterization, but it’s correct: when I carry, it’s because I have weighed the competing risks and rewards and made a prudential determination that the balance falls on the side of carrying. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/142 "2016-12-26T05:31:12Z")
> [@joe.russell](#): > > Worth mentioning in iowa, a business can claim to be ‘gun free’, but I have a right to go intoto that business with a gun. If the owner sees, they have a right to ask me to leave. If I choose not too, thats when im breaking the law. There may b exceptions for govt buildings or schools, im not sure. > > The rare times I carry, I open carry. Typically with a sweatshirt covering most of it. Iowa is a permit to carry, so u can conceal or open carry based on preference. The way I see it, if someone is open carrying, I’m aware and can leave. If someone conceal carries, I have no idea. Frankly I’d almost be more comfortable knowing someone has a gun, than wondering if they do. That’s not quite the way it works in Virginia. In Virginia, a “No Firearms,” sign operates like a No Trespassing sign: if you see it when you enter the private property and and you’re carrying a firearm, you’re trespassing. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/143 "2016-12-26T05:47:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, but “I might need it,” is exactly why police officers carry firearms, too. > > Of course, that’s a somewhat dismissive characterization, but it’s correct: when I carry, it’s because I have weighed the competing risks and rewards and made a prudential determination that the balance falls on the side of carrying. And I feel that your characterization of the risks are overblown and laughable. And instead of you proving your case of why you are safer carrying, you default to “Because it’s my right, and I choose to do so” And by “you” I mean the people who choose to carry. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/144 "2016-12-26T06:16:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … when I carry, it’s because I have weighed the competing risks and rewards and made a prudential determination that the balance falls on the side of carrying. This makes sense. It’s good you admit the problem is more of quantitative than qualitative distinction; however you don’t fully quantify the matter. What do you think of George Zimmerman, whose “rewards” for carrying a gun are unusually high — it allows him to act as asshole and provoke fights? Some Americans parade into a pancake house carrying assault rifles because they choose to, because they have that legal right. Do you thank them for their good deed because it “normalizes” the sight of guns and makes it easier for you to carry in self-defense? When asked why _you_ carry a gun, do you respond “Because I choose to, because I have that legal right”? If you could wave a magic wand and a thousand fewer American children would be hungry, or ISIS suddenly disappear, would you do so if the magic genie insisted that in return you stop carrying a gun? Although invoking magic, this hypothetical approach to quantification goes to the heart of the matter for many of us — _ **our severe puzzlement** _ that many Americans (gays voting for the GOP, union members voting for union busters, etc.) think of nothing but their guns, _Guns, GUNS!!_ when in the polling booth. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/145 "2016-12-26T06:24:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, but “I might need it,” is exactly why police officers carry firearms, too. I don’t care why police officers carry. I assume it’s their job to carry. > [@](#): > > Of course, that’s a somewhat dismissive characterization, but it’s correct: when I carry, it’s because I have weighed the competing risks and rewards and made a prudential determination that the balance falls on the side of carrying. And I believe that your weighing of the risks and rewards is overblown and your determination of the advantages of carrying is flawed. How can you convince me that it is not flawed? ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/146 "2016-12-26T14:37:10Z")
> [@joe.russell](#): > > Worth mentioning in iowa, a business can claim to be ‘gun free’, but I have a right to go intoto that business with a gun. If the owner sees, they have a right to ask me to leave. If I choose not too, thats when im breaking the law. There may b exceptions for govt buildings or schools, im not sure. Makes you wonder could a business could refuse service and kick you out for being Muslim. Both are constitutionally protected rights yet I foresee all sorts of trouble coming for a business that does so. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/147 "2016-12-26T15:39:51Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > This makes sense. It’s good you admit the problem is more of quantitative than qualitative distinction; however you don’t fully quantify the matter. Whew. Thank goodness – your approval remains, as ever, paramount to my decisions and conduct. > [@](#): > > What do you think of George Zimmerman, whose “rewards” for carrying a gun are unusually high — it allows him to act as asshole and provoke fights? I think Zimmerman was a fool. How is this relevant to my decision? I’m not a fool. > [@](#): > > Some Americans parade into a pancake house carrying assault rifles because they choose to, because they have that legal right. Do you thank them for their good deed because it “normalizes” the sight of guns and makes it easier for you to carry in self-defense? Sure. I think it’s a gesture I am unwilling to explore, but if no one does, then the legal right becomes increasingly fragile. > [@](#): > > When asked why _you_ carry a gun, do you respond “Because I choose to, because I have that legal right”? It depends entirely on the context in which the question is asked. Here, based on a claim that there was some genuine interest in the reasons as opposed to a thinly-veiled precursor to a declaration that I didn’t “need,” to carry after all, I chose to offer my actual reasons. If the latter sentiment were evident, I might well respond more tersely. > [@](#): > > If you could wave a magic wand and a thousand fewer American children would be hungry, or ISIS suddenly disappear, would you do so if the magic genie insisted that in return you stop carrying a gun? Although invoking magic, this hypothetical approach to quantification goes to the heart of the matter for many of us — _ **our severe puzzlement** _ that many Americans (gays voting for the GOP, union members voting for union busters, etc.) think of nothing but their guns, _Guns, GUNS!!_ when in the polling booth. I certainly would . . . but I would not impose that policy choice on my fellow citizens in the aggregate. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/148 "2016-12-26T15:49:01Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > That’s a load of bovine excrement and you know it, nice straw man argument. > > When I carry, concealed or open, I do it because I choose to, and have the legal right to do so. > > You are no more threatened by me carrying than me not carrying, I have no desire or intent to use my firearm to threaten anyone, heck, the ideal solution is to make it to the end of the day not having to use the firearm at all. > > Now, if you’re simply scared or “threatened” by me simply because I happen to be carrying, that’s your problem, not mine, your fear does not give you the right to infringe on my rights. Didn’t read the whole thread but I must say that the visibility of a firearm makes it more likely that it will be used. Every time I see some old fart open carrying I think about how easy it would be to slam him in the back of the head with something heavy, take his gun and start shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/149 "2016-12-26T16:38:28Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > Didn’t read the whole thread but I must say that the visibility of a firearm makes it more likely that it will be used. Every time I see some old fart open carrying I think about how easy it would be to slam him in the back of the head with something heavy, take his gun and start shooting. To your knowledge, has this ever happened? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/150 "2016-12-26T17:27:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That is sort of my point. WHY is it perceived now to be a trivial factor? Because studies of accidents showed that having a seat belt on was significantly better than NOT having it on? > > If that is the case, why don’t people carry around first aid kits on their persons at all times? Seems to me that carrying a first aid kit would be a great idea just in case of emergencies. I still you’re missing my point. You and k9 have a very strong IMO implicit assumption that there’s only ‘studies’ and ‘I feel, for no particular factual reason’. I and others have countered that there is an intermediate category of factual reasons but which vary by individual. The point about seat belts is lack of a credible argument there’s any significant negative to wearing one, or credible argument that the pluses and minuses vary much by person. Therefore ‘studies’ are a good way to determine the answer. With guns in contrast there is IMO by basic common sense much larger potential in either direction (save your life, cost a life), and thus it’s much more likely the net outcome would vary by person. Unfortunately you’ve countered this just by implicitly characterizing the potential pluses of a gun as equally absurd as worrying about the downside of seat belts or ‘carrying around a first aid kit’ (AFAIK prudent people have one at home and in their car, would carry one on their person hiking far from others, and OTOH unlike a gun one could quickly buy or expect to be lent first aid supplies in a built up area, so all around not a good analogy). But it’s not at all absurd to think a gun’s big upside might benefit a convenience store owner in a dicey neighborhood, any other worker who has to carry a lot of cash to deposit, and so forth. These kind of variations don’t exist among drivers as to seatbelts. So I wasn’t repeating your point, but a point you’re not getting or acknowledging. Now does this mean the decision to carry guns is always based on what I’d view as factual individual risk analysis? No. But ‘studies’ is only a killer argument if it’s something relatively homogeneous, something without big downside _and_ upside, and/or where the up/down doesn’t vary much from one person to the next. Seatbelts fit this description. Guns don’t. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/151 "2016-12-26T22:18:48Z")
OP here again. To really sum up, isn’t it advantageous to actually know who’s carrying? ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/152 "2016-12-26T22:21:17Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > OP here again. To really sum up, isn’t it advantageous to actually know who’s carrying? Advantageous how? to whom? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/153 "2016-12-26T22:53:43Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > OP here again. To really sum up, isn’t it advantageous to actually know who’s carrying? Let’s assume you had X-ray glasses and could determine who was carrying a concealed weapon. How would you use that information? ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/154 "2016-12-26T23:11:29Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Let’s assume you had X-ray glasses and could determine who was carrying a concealed weapon. How would you use that information? I would be bloody careful and polite around him/her and be careful about disagreeing with anything he or she said. That’s how. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/155 "2016-12-26T23:31:48Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Eh, no there can’t be. At least there cannot be any such [studies performed by the CDC](http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-gun-research-funding-20160614-snap-story.html). > > I can leave it up to you as to why exactly gun advocates do not want the CDC to do research on this subject. Because the CDC has decided that their findings will be that guns are bad and will direct their ‘research’ to support that conclusion. [Cite](http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/261307-why-congress-stopped-gun-control-activism-at-the-cdc) > [@](#): > > “We’re going to systematically build a case that owning firearms causes deaths. We’re doing the most we can do, given the political realities.” (P.W. O’Carroll, Acting Section Head of Division of Injury Control, CDC, quoted in Marsha F. Goldsmith, “Epidemiologists Aim at New Target: Health Risk of Handgun Proliferation,” Journal of the American Medical Association vol. 261 no. 5, February 3, 1989, pp. 675-76.) Dr. O’Carroll later said he had been misquoted. > > But his successor Dr. Mark Rosenberg was quoted in the Washington Post as wanting his agency to create a public perception of firearms as “dirty, deadly—and banned.” (William Raspberry, “Sick People With Guns,” Washington Post, October 19, 1994. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/156 "2016-12-27T00:48:05Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > I would be bloody careful and polite around him/her and be careful about disagreeing with anything he or she said. That’s how. Are you not that way with everyone you meet? Fender bender? They are still sitting in their car as you first approach therm and you have no idea as to how they are or anything. You are nasty & mean to a small wimpy looking guy but very polite to big ugly guys? 😕 or maybe :rolleyes: is better? ---
**Author:** ![Dickerman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@Dickerman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dickerman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/157 "2016-12-27T01:22:39Z")
Whenever I carry, either concealed or openly, my politeness and conviviality only increases, as does the likelihood that I seek to avoid confrontation. I drive better too. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/158 "2016-12-27T03:32:17Z")
> [@Dickerman](#): > > Whenever I carry, either concealed or openly, my politeness and conviviality only increases, as does the likelihood that I seek to avoid confrontation. I drive better too. This for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/159 "2016-12-27T06:29:10Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > The difference is I can admit that it is more dangerous to drive than it is not to drive. I drive because it is easier for me to get to work, pick up my kids, go places. I acknowledge that it is more dangerous than if I didn’t drive. If someone asked me “Driving is way more dangerous than not driving, why do you do it?” I wouldn’t say “Because it is my right, I choose to drive” I would lay out the reasons I just did. You still haven’t described how you’d like to quantify “safer”. By what metric would that be? While not driving may ultimately lower your risk of being injured in a vehicular accident, it could be the case that by not driving you would not be able to achieve a certain income level which would limit you in other ways impacting your overall health. In that case, perhaps the increased risk of vehicular accident is outweighed by the increase in standard of living and which on balance would lead to better health outcomes. Risk/reward like that is much more complicated than the seatbelt question, and I would think that over time if you were asked a bajilion times you may eventually fall back on “it’s my right”. Except in the case of driving, it’s not your right. > [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t care why police officers carry. I assume it’s their job to carry. It’s strange why you wouldn’t care. You’d think it would inform your analysis. An individual officer may have a job to carry, but as departments they’ve made the assessment that overall their officers are safer if they are carrying. You’d think that’d be interesting. > [@Slash1972](#): > > And I believe that your weighing of the risks and rewards is overblown and your determination of the advantages of carrying is flawed. How can you convince me that it is not flawed? You mistake where the burden of proof lies. No one needs to convince you. In the vast majority of states in the union, if a person wants to carry they are able to, because that is their right. If you think that’s not the way things should be, then it is you who would need to convince the legislatures of those states. Good luck. > [@Mr.Duality](#): > > Didn’t read the whole thread but I must say that the visibility of a firearm makes it more likely that it will be used. Every time I see some old fart open carrying I think about how easy it would be to slam him in the back of the head with something heavy, take his gun and start shooting. That would be the actions of a psychopath. They hardly need an open carrier to carry out those actions if they were interested in them. I recommend Blackhawk retention holsters if carrying visibly. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/160 "2016-12-27T15:19:00Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Are you not that way with everyone you meet? > Fender bender? They are still sitting in their car as you first approach therm and you have no idea as to how they are or anything. You are nasty & mean to a small wimpy looking guy but very polite to big ugly guys? 😕 or maybe :rolleyes: is better? I’m sure that I’m not the only person who has lost his temper at someone in a parking lot or a traffic jam, or had someone lose their temper at me in the same situation (trust me, this has only happened a few times:) but it has happened). In Canada I can be fairly confident that if that sort of thing happens I won’t get shot. Or if I inadvertently cut someone off without realizing it and they give me the one finger salute they know that they won’t be shot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184.md?page=9)