# Open carry question **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 19, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184 "2016-12-19T21:40:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/161 "2016-12-27T15:38:22Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > You still haven’t described how you’d like to quantify “safer”. By what metric would that be? While not driving may ultimately lower your risk of being injured in a vehicular accident, it could be the case that by not driving you would not be able to achieve a certain income level which would limit you in other ways impacting your overall health. In that case, perhaps the increased risk of vehicular accident is outweighed by the increase in standard of living and which on balance would lead to better health outcomes. Risk/reward like that is much more complicated than the seatbelt question, and I would think that over time if you were asked a bajilion times you may eventually fall back on “it’s my right”. Except in the case of driving, it’s not your right. I’m not sure what you are saying in this paragraph. I’ve admitted that driving is more dangerous than not > [@](#): > > It’s strange why you wouldn’t care. You’d think it would inform your analysis. An individual officer may have a job to carry, but as departments they’ve made the assessment that overall their officers are safer if they are carrying. You’d think that’d be interesting. It’s also interesting that some police in other countries DON’T carry a gun around. > [@](#): > > You mistake where the burden of proof lies. No one needs to convince you. In the vast majority of states in the union, if a person wants to carry they are able to, because that is their right. If you think that’s not the way things should be, then it is you who would need to convince the legislatures of those states. Good luck. I don’t need to be convinced. I will simply continue to laugh at your unfounded fears that result in you carrying a gun around. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/162 "2016-12-27T15:54:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m not sure what you are saying in this paragraph. I’ve admitted that driving is more dangerous than not I’m saying that saying something is “more dangerous” doesn’t tell you in what way that danger presents itself. So when you are implying that a person carrying is “less safe” than a person not carrying, you haven’t described in what way they are less safe. The description isn’t useful since safety can take many forms. Based on the lack of definition this could simply be a generalized feeling, but I’m guessing that’s not what you are are trying to say. Unfortunately you haven’t specified what you mean by the term safety. > [@](#): > > It’s also interesting that some police in other countries DON’T carry a gun around. It totally is - if we were talking about other countries. Since we’re not (I’m not), it really isn’t germane in the slightest. > [@](#): > > I don’t need to be convinced. I will simply continue to laugh at your unfounded fears that result in you carrying a gun around. Well, I hardly carry (CA resident, our pseudo-fascist state government doesn’t allow it), but if I did it certainly wouldn’t be due to fear. Any more than the fact I actually do carry a first aid kit is due to fear. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/163 "2016-12-27T16:07:17Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > So when you are implying that a person carrying is “less safe” than a person not carrying, you haven’t described in what way they are less safe. I haven’t implied that the person carrying is “less safe” I have said that I am less safe, because that person could miss when shooting something and hit me instead. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/164 "2016-12-27T16:10:22Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t need to be convinced. I will simply continue to laugh at your unfounded fears that result in you carrying a gun around. That’s what the First Amendment guarantees. And I’m happy with that division of work: you laugh, I’ll carry. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/165 "2016-12-27T16:15:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s what the First Amendment guarantees. And I’m happy with that division of work: you laugh, I’ll carry. Works for me! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/166 "2016-12-27T16:30:47Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I haven’t implied that the person carrying is “less safe” I have said that I am less safe, because that person could miss when shooting something and hit me instead. How do you know you are less safe? In this context, what does less safe mean? Have you considered that a person could not miss and successfully use their firearm defensively? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/167 "2016-12-27T16:37:57Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > How do you know you are less safe? In this context, what does less safe mean? Have you considered that a person could not miss and successfully use their firearm defensively? Yes, I’ve considered it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/168 "2016-12-27T16:38:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > To your knowledge, has this ever happened? It was very easy to find an example of an “open carrier” being robbed of his weapon. [http://gawker.com/open-carrying-guy-has-his-brand-new-pistol-stolen-at-gu-1644022889](http://gawker.com/open-carrying-guy-has-his-brand-new-pistol-stolen-at-gu-1644022889) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/169 "2016-12-27T16:46:03Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > It was very easy to find an example of an “open carrier” being robbed of his weapon. > [http://gawker.com/open-carrying-guy-has-his-brand-new-pistol-stolen-at-gu-1644022889](http://gawker.com/open-carrying-guy-has-his-brand-new-pistol-stolen-at-gu-1644022889) I laughed at this story, thanks for linking it. Now, why was that guy carrying a gun if he didn’t even use it to keep said gun from being stolen? :D:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/170 "2016-12-27T16:51:54Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yes, I’ve considered it. So how do you know you are less safe, and what does less safe mean to you? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/171 "2016-12-27T16:54:52Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > How do you know you are less safe? In this context, what does less safe mean? Have you considered that a person could not miss and successfully use their firearm defensively? I don’t really trust those people to consider their backstop, especially when I may be the backstop. And I don’t know that I trust them to hit their target with 100% accuracy. Tell you what, you stand down range next to a target that someone is firing at. See how nervous that makes you. (Please don’t, that’s dangerous.) Anyone who considers carrying a gun into any crowded environment either does not know that any confrontation they may have in which their gun may be utilized will put many bystander’s safety at risk, or they just don’t care(putting the safety of them and theirs above that of me and mine seems a big theme in this thread). ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/172 "2016-12-27T17:04:08Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I laughed at this story, thanks for linking it. > > Now, why was that guy carrying a gun if he didn’t even use it to keep said gun from being stolen? > > :D:smack: Because he realized that it was not like the movies, and that there was no way he would be able to get his gun out, un-safed, pointed and fired before he was shot down by the mugger. It does seem that this is a delusion that many gun carriers buy into to make themselves feel safer, but deep down, they know that if it ever came down to it, they are just going to give the mugger their gun along with their wallet. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/173 "2016-12-27T17:36:14Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > So how do you know you are less safe, and what does less safe mean to you? Less safe means to me that there are more ways for me to get injured or killed. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/174 "2016-12-27T17:56:56Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Less safe means to me that there are more ways for me to get injured or killed. Does your consideration only take into account potential negative outcomes? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/175 "2016-12-27T17:58:52Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Does your consideration only take into account potential negative outcomes? Is there a positive way to get injured or killed? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/176 "2016-12-27T18:00:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > (putting the safety of them and theirs above that of me and mine seems a big theme in this thread). Let me be explicit: yes. My safety is more important to me than your safety. If you value my safety higher, or equally, to your own, thanks. I really appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/177 "2016-12-27T18:08:04Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Because he realized that it was not like the movies, and that there was no way he would be able to get his gun out, un-safed, pointed and fired before he was shot down by the mugger. > > It does seem that this is a delusion that many gun carriers buy into to make themselves feel safer, but deep down, they know that if it ever came down to it, they are just going to give the mugger their gun along with their wallet. Your statement in the first paragraph is false. While real life is not like the movies, it is entirely possible that an armed person even after being confronted by an armed attacker would be able to draw and fire their own weapon before being shot themselves. [Here is an example:](http://www.wbaltv.com/article/towson-store-clerk-shoots-kills-robber-police-say/7097608) > [@](#): > > Investigators said one of the robbers, identified by police Tuesday as Claude Edward Mayo, 25, of Baltimore, aimed a handgun at the clerk’s head, at which time the clerk got his own handgun and shot Mayo multiple times. > > “One of the men pointed his gun at the clerk. That clerk pulled his own gun and shot the man several times. Both suspects then fled the store. The first suspect collapsed outside the store and was declared deceased at the scene. The second suspect fled on foot,” Baltimore County police Cpl. John Wachter said. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Is there a positive way to get injured or killed? If it’s the attacker being injured or killed, I’d say that’s pretty damn positive. I notice you didn’t answer my question though, was that on purpose? Does your consideration of being less safe only take into account potential negative outcomes? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/178 "2016-12-27T18:13:10Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Your statement in the first paragraph is false. While real life is not like the movies, it is entirely possible that an armed person even after being confronted by an armed attacker would be able to draw and fire their own weapon before being shot themselves. [Here is an example:](http://www.wbaltv.com/article/towson-store-clerk-shoots-kills-robber-police-say/7097608) This happened inside of a store by a store clerk. Do you have any examples of it happening in the street or in an outdoor public area by a person carrying a gun? > [@](#): > > If it’s the attacker being injured or killed, I’d say that’s pretty damn positive. I notice you didn’t answer my question though, was that on purpose? Does your consideration of being less safe only take into account potential negative outcomes? Well, I don’t consider anyone being killed as a positive outcome. I can’t think of any potential positive outcomes that are likely to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/179 "2016-12-27T18:31:19Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This happened inside of a store by a store clerk. Do you have any examples of it happening in the street or in an outdoor public area by a person carrying a gun? That wasn’t specified in k9’s false statement. But sure, here are a couple more: [Pizza driver involved in gunfight with armed robber on west side](http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/56723246-story) > [@](#): > > After arriving to an abandoned house and being confronted, the driver pulled his own gun and was involved in shootout, according to police. > > The house, located on Kentucky near Joy Road, was vacant and a suspect was waiting for the driver inside. In the shooting the suspect was wounded and found on the next street over, Kentucky, where he was arrested. [Gary man killed after pulling gun on would-be car buyer](http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/man-killed-after-pulling-gun-on-would-be-car-buyer/article_42d9ab3f-660a-5f04-a0ba-17a30fa1cabd.html) > [@](#): > > A Gary man was killed and his girlfriend was wounded Sunday after they tried to rob several people who met them on Gary’s West Side to buy a vehicle, officials said. > > Brandon Johnson, 22, was shot several times about a block from his home after he pulled a gun on the would-be buyers, officials said. > > Johnson’s girlfriend, a 21-year-old Gary woman, was shot in the thigh and fled to a hospital for treatment, Lt. Thomas Pawlak said. She was later released from the hospital and was arrested pending filing of formal charges. [2 wounded teens wanted in Uptown New Orleans armed robbery](http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/02/2_wounded_teens_wanted_for_upt.html) > [@](#): > > Police said the armed pair approached the victims Wednesday (Jan. 27) around 11:12 p.m. near Austerlitz and Tchoupitoulas streets and demanded their property. Both victims complied and handed over their belongings, but one victim produced a pistol and shot the robbers, both of whom fled. > > Ford and Hurlston were found in the 3900 block of Tchoupitoulas, suffering from non-life threatening gunshot wounds. They were taken to a local hospital by emergency medical services personnel, treated and released. * * * > [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, I don’t consider anyone being killed as a positive outcome. > > I can’t think of any potential positive outcomes that are likely to happen. Given that you’re only considering negative outcomes, it’s pretty obvious that you’d draw the conclusion that you are less safe. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184/180 "2016-12-27T18:34:55Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Given that you’re only considering negative outcomes, it’s pretty obvious that you’d draw the conclusion that you are less safe. Given that you’re only considering positive outcomes, and the fact that you think killing a human being is a positive outcome, it’s pretty obvious that you’d draw the conclusion that you are safer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-carry-question/775184.md?page=10)