# Open discussion on becoming vegetarian / vegan **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 22, 2021, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475 "2021-12-22T13:35:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/61 "2021-12-25T02:27:15Z")
Two questions for Two Many Cats: In your opinion, is it morally/ethically okay to eat meat? In your opinion, is it morally/ethically okay to cause animals to suffer? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/62 "2021-12-25T02:44:34Z")
Yes, in my opinion it is morally okay to eat meat. No, in my opinion it is not morally okay to make animals suffer. Yes, today’s factory farms make animals suffer. I fully endorse changing that system. But my refraining from eating meat is not going to stop factory farming. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/63 "2021-12-25T02:48:24Z")
Thanks; that was clear and concise. This: > [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > But my refraining from eating meat is not going to stop factory farming. is the disconnect and rationalization that **Mijin** is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/64 "2021-12-25T02:50:05Z")
Are you contending that my refraining from eating meat will stop factory farming? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/65 "2021-12-25T02:51:51Z")
Shall we call that fallacy by name? Do you think that because you do not murder anyone, that will stop all murders? That because you do not rob your neighbors homes, that will stop all robberies? The better question is: do you see and understand the disconnect I pointed out? Or do you think it is a perfectly normal, rational non-contradictory statement that you made? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/66 "2021-12-25T03:31:26Z")
By the way: do you vote? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/67 "2021-12-25T03:38:05Z")
Your examples would only work if I actually wanted to murder and rob people the way I want to eat meat. Perhaps the real problem you have with my statement is the hypocrisy of it. I will eat meat even if I believe making animals suffer is wrong. This reminds me of the few months I spent pointedly NOT buying Cottonelle Toilet Paper, Brawny Paper Towels, or Dixie Paper Plates because they were owned by the evil Koch Brothers. But then, I found to my sorrow that as evil as the Koch Brothers are, they make damn fine paper products that, in my opinion, make other paper products suck in comparison. And did my tiny little boycott make the Koch Brothers change their evil ways even the least little bit? Fuck no. So I went back to buying the Koch Brothers’ superlative paper products because the Koch Brothers have no idea who I am, and aren’t missing the fifty bucks I wasn’t giving them for a month or two. So I find I can live with a shrug at my own hypocrisy because living without meat only makes me suffer. Admittedly, I’m suffering less than the unfortunate livestock suffer, but that’s the way of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/68 "2021-12-25T03:39:21Z")
Yes, I vote. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/69 "2021-12-25T03:39:53Z")
Thank you so much for this post; it’s another excellent example that you’ve provided of what **Mijin** has been talking about. For the record, I’m not “bothered” by your moral twists and contortions; like **Mijin** , I find them amusing as hell. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/70 "2021-12-25T03:42:58Z")
Okay, I’ll ask you. Where am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/71 "2021-12-25T03:50:02Z")
Why do you vote? It won’t change the outcome. Why do not murder anyone you want to? Your restraint won’t stop all murders. Etc. You’ve already acknowledged the disconnect between what you say and what you do and that you don’t care about that: you’d rather eat meat. So what’s the problem with others pointing it out? Not scolding, just pointing it out. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/72 "2021-12-25T04:04:49Z")
I vote mostly because for years the Jehovah’s Witnesses told me not to. Certainly Joe Biden didn’t fill me with joy. It is my opinion along with society’s that murder is wrong. I’ve never wanted to murder anybody, and anyway, murdering people is a pain in the ass. Yes, I live with my hypocrisy about eating meat from the factory farms. Tell me, can we be certain that none of your clothing comes from a sweatshop in Bangladesh? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/73 "2021-12-25T04:18:25Z")
Did I say I was against Bangladeshi sweatshops? 🤨 😜 **TMC** , there’s no need to try and make this personal; I’m not dissing or judging you. You said you didn’t see the disconnect that was mentioned; I was trying to help you see it. Obviously, you did and do see it now. That’s all there is to my posts. ETA: Okay, I did express amusement at the expression of disconnect; merely an unintended consequence, tho. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/74 "2021-12-25T04:31:33Z")
I don’t consider my acceptance of my hypocrisy a disconnect. A disconnect implies non-cogniscence. I’m very aware of my shortcomings. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/75 "2021-12-25T05:11:40Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I was simply stating the observation that most people IME have some degree of cognitive dissonance on this subject. They believe animals suffer in the meat industry, they think unnecessary suffering is wrong, but they still eat meat. > > I’d say in about half of the cases, the person just tries not to think about it. I belong(ed) to that set. Dropping meat seemed a massive hassle and it was easier to put off that decision until TomorrowTM > > The other half think of some justification, and then try to avoid scrutinizing that justification. Like the naturalistic fallacy that you alluded to. I’ve taken a third path. I love meat, but i also don’t like to create suffering. So I pay a lot more to buy meat from pastured animals that get to live a normal life until they are slaughtered. In theory, the slaughter house is humane as these things go, too, but killing is never nice. At least it’s quick, though. And yes, i mostly eat meat that I’ve cooked, and i know where it came from. Dropping meat wouldn’t be all that hard. We have lots of vegetarian dishes in the repertoire, and most aren’t hard to make. But I’d miss meat. A lot. Sweets are nice and all that, but when I was a kid i was always angling to another slice of the roast, not of the cake. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why do not murder anyone you want to? Your restraint won’t stop all murders. I have murdered every person I ever truly wanted to murder. That would be zero people. And that makes it a silly comparison. My observation is that most vegetarians never really craved meat anyway. I’m sure there are exceptions. But that true of the vast majority of vegetarians I’ve known. Anyway, I’m happy to cook for vegetarians. Or vegans. There are plenty of delicious vegan foods. I’m just not happy to eat vegetarian day in and day out. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/76 "2021-12-25T05:51:24Z")
Is this a joke? Is there some Christmas tradition I’m not aware of that includes this sort of thing as a joke? Why didn’t you say “Yes, I’m okay with animals suffering”? That’s the disconnect. And the gymnastics. Sometimes you seem to understand, then suddenly you don’t seem to understand. I wish you the best of luck in reaching your goal. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/77 "2021-12-25T05:58:28Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I have murdered every person I ever truly wanted to murder. That would be zero people. And that makes it a silly comparison. \< sheepish\> Inelegant phrasing, I admit. But it wasn’t because you thought it would stop all murders from occurring, was it? My point stands: all-or-nothing is a fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/78 "2021-12-25T06:04:31Z")
I didn’t say I’m okay with animal suffering because I’m not. I am okay with eating meat. I intend to keep eating meat because not eating meat will not stop animals suffering. Yeah, it’s not entirely righteous. But I’m okay with that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/79 "2021-12-25T06:22:02Z")
Well there’s that disconnect again. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475/80 "2021-12-25T08:09:50Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > My view on that is that since we’ve disturbed the natural ecosystems in many areas by eliminating predators it’s now on us to cull the herds, and if we’re going to cull the animals then we might as well eat them rather than let them go to waste. > > Good idea. A cull and a nice big barbecue lasting a couple of years. But there’s no need to perpetuate it after that. Um… only if you find a way to get deer to use birth control. Otherwise in a bit you’ll find yourself in the same pickle again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-discussion-on-becoming-vegetarian-vegan/956475.md?page=5)