# Open gun carry is coming to Texas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338 "2015-12-25T17:46:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/41 "2015-12-26T03:35:47Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > Some take offense to the question, because we get it so often from the gun banners. “Why do you need to carry a gun” or “why do you need” an assault rifle? It’s seldom a legitimate question, an usually serves as a weak opening from a smug gun banner to advance his arguments. We get sick of it. > > Same with Czarcasm’s question. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, on the off chance he was sincere. (Plus he’s polite.) But usually the question “have you ever needed your gun” come out of one side of a gun controllers mouth, while the other side is telling everyone how violence is so out of control that we have to do something. So to put your sentiment in slightly different terms, you take umbrage at the question so the response of “because I can” is intended to similarly cause offense. It’s a passive aggressive answer. Which is not a intended to be a “perfectly valid” response. I think we are in violent agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/42 "2015-12-26T03:37:21Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > There is a world where gun controllers live, where otherwise rational people panic at the sight of a gun, where pistol grips and bayonet lugs make rifles more deadly, where I’m 42 times more likely to shoot myself or my friends than to use my gun for defense, where carrying a gun is of no value because bad guys can just take it away (why can’t I take their guns away?), where the cops that shoot 100 rounds per year are highly trained weapons experts but I and my ex-military friends are incompetent buffoons, and where the best defense against mass shootings is to put up a sign that says “no guns allowed”. > > Then there’s the real world. That’s where I live. When you’re referring to “the world where gun controllers live,” you’re taking about virtually all modern industrialized countries that have much lower rates of violent deaths, right? ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/43 "2015-12-26T03:48:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > When you’re referring to “the world where gun controllers live,” you’re taking about virtually all modern industrialized countries that have much lower rates of violent deaths, right? No. I’m talking about the real world, where you don’t get to cherry pick your defining criteria and not get called on it, and where the United States is the bottom half of the entire world’s countries in homicide rate. Also the world where my own state of Wyoming, with the highest gun ownership and least gun control in the country, has a lower homicide rate than five Canadian provinces, and lower than California, the gun controllers dream state. Do you guys ever try any new lines, or just keep repeating the same old tired BS and hope somebody believes it? Check the polls: it’s not working. Should be obvious - your core premise is that a person will be safer if he makes himself defenseless. Maybe you could try the no-fly list. Oh wait… ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/44 "2015-12-26T03:50:58Z")
> [@DirtyHippy](#): > > Timely cartoon. > > [http://assets.amuniversal.com/352f2b508b7d01332bf3005056a9545d](http://assets.amuniversal.com/352f2b508b7d01332bf3005056a9545d) I’ll admit I laughed. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/45 "2015-12-26T04:01:19Z")
Really. I don’t understand why gun controllers keep bringing up US homicide rates vs. “other industrialized countries”, when they can just look within the US itself and get a finer focus. California has a lot of gun control. Wyoming has much less, and a lower homicide rate. So within the US, gun control = more crime, right? Not so fast. There must be other factors at work. Right. > **[There's No Correlation Between Gun Ownership, Mass Shootings, and Murder Rates...](https://mises.org/wire/theres-no-correlation-between-gun-ownership-mass-shootings-and-murder-rates)** > > While I was fact checking today's Mises Daily article, I checked some correlation coefficients of my own so I didn't have to rely on Volokh's numbers as my only source.I approached the data a little differently than Volokh did and instead of using a... \*Actually, I do understand it. They cherry-pick numbers than reinforce their emotionally-driven beliefs. See their use of “gun deaths” instead of “murder rates” for example. Dishonest bunch, these gun controllers. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/46 "2015-12-26T04:12:09Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > To the best of my knowledge, gun-control advocates are the people trying to ban black rifles. Racists all. Brilliant! I am stunned by the eloquence and erudition of those who Love Guns So Very Very Big., Not. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/47 "2015-12-26T04:12:48Z")
Good. We’ve had it in Ohio for forever. No problems. Even though I have a CHL, I open carry 90% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/48 "2015-12-26T04:14:39Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > California has a lot of gun control. Wyoming has much less, and a lower homicide rate. So within the US, gun control = more crime, right? Not so fast. There must be other factors at work. How does violent crime correlate between dense urban populations and a place where some people have to drive a couple miles to see their neighbor? ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/49 "2015-12-26T04:34:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How does violent crime correlate between dense urban populations and a place where some people have to drive a couple miles to see their neighbor? That’s the point. There are other factors at work, just as there are between the US and other countries. Comparing Wyoming to California on homicide rate makes about as much sense as comparing my Uncle Bill, who smoked and lived to 89, to my Aunt Rita, who didn’t and died young of cancer. Or comparing the US homicide rate to “other industrialized nations” while ignoring all the other countries, more than half of which have more gun control and a higher homicide rate. But all and all, US state-to-state comparisons make more than sense than US to I’ll-pick-who-I-like-because-it-supports-my-viewpoint comparisons. And such studies do not support the gun controllers’ arguments, as I linked above. By the way, Wyoming has a lower homicide rate than five Canadian provinces/territories that have both stricter gun control AND a lower population density. Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Yukon, NW Territories, and Nunavut. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/50 "2015-12-26T04:37:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How does violent crime correlate between dense urban populations and a place where some people have to drive a couple miles to see their neighbor? Also, my immediate neighbors on both sides of me are less than 30 yards away as I type. They’re both armed, as is almost everyone I know (not sure about the Colorado transplants across the street.) I have no urge to murder them whatsoever. And my town’s homicide rate is zero. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/51 "2015-12-26T04:39:38Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Good. > > We’ve had it in Ohio for forever. No problems. > > Even though I have a CHL, I open carry 90% of the time. Are you in an urban area? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/52 "2015-12-26T05:56:36Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > They detained him briefly then let him go as he was not breaking any laws. This is disturbing – if the police detained him without even a reasonable, articulable suspicion that he had violated any laws, that detention, even if brief, violated his Fourth Amendment rights. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/53 "2015-12-26T06:14:08Z")
The 4th amendment is nearly dead anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Mnemnosyne](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mnemnosyne/32/3347_2.png) [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/54 "2015-12-26T08:45:53Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > Beginning Jan 1, 2016 Texas will allow folks with concealed carry permits to openly carry weapons. This is not intended to be a debate as to whether it should or shouldn’t be allowed, rather a question as to why someone would want to openly carry a weapon. > > I am about as pro second amendment as one can get, and I do not really have a problem with the law, but I would never want to openly carry. I believe it would make me more of a target. I am wondering what someone who does openly carry will say when asked why. The answers “Because I can” or the equally absurd “I’m exercising my rights.” come to mind. There HAS to be a better reason than that. If a person believes that carrying guns openly should be considered and perceived as normal, then they would want to do it in order to help make it more common, and therefore more normal to public perception. If, despite having the right to do so, people never carry guns openly, then seeing someone with a gun is automatically alarming because it is such an unusual sight. Furthermore, if carrying a gun is automatically alarming, then it could be argued that someone doing so is ‘disturbing the peace’, just as someone engaging in all sorts of other (non-gun-related) bizarre but legal behavior, that causes others around them to be apprehensive or disturbed, may be. Thus, those who think carrying guns should be a normal everyday sight that does not cause alarm would want to carry them simply to make it and keep it a normal everyday sight, and prevent it being such a rare occurrence that it causes alarm when someone chooses to do so. Even if they have no other purpose, making it ‘more normal’ for people to see guns being carried is in itself a reasonable purpose if one is advocating for that position, since it theoretically helps prevent the right from being eroded by virtue of being so rarely used. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/55 "2015-12-26T13:28:44Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The 4th amendment is nearly dead anyways. At one point, the same might have been said of the Second. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/56 "2015-12-26T13:36:53Z")
As the Attorney General of Ohio recently reminded all law enforcement officers and agencies in his state: > [@](#): > > An officer was advised by dispatch that a man was walking his dog while openly carrying a gun on his hip. The officer responded to the call and saw the subject, Shawn Northrup, and his wife walking their dog down the street. The officer approached Northrup and disarmed him. He demanded his driver’s license and concealed carry permit. Northrup gave the officer his license but told the officer to look up his concealed carry permit himself. The officer then threatened to charge Northrup with inducing panic, put Northrup in handcuffs, and placed him in his squad car. He eventually released Northrup with a citation for “failure to disclose personal information.” The charge was later dropped by police. Northrup sued the officer and the Toledo Police Department for violating his Fourth Amendment rights. The police sought to invoke their qualified immunity, but the 6th Circuit pointed out that the police conduct violated clearly established law, and thus stripped police of that immunity. > [@](#): > > Clearly established law prevents officers from stopping and frisking individuals unless they have “reasonable suspicion” that the individual committed, or is about to commit, a crime. While Northrup was clearly “armed,” he was legally armed and there is no evidence that he was armed and dangerous. Because Northrup’s Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures was violated, the Court allowed Northrup’s lawsuit to proceed. The AG’s guidance ends by pointing out that police certainly retain the ability to initiate a consensual encounter with a person who is openly carrying, as long as that person remains free to disregard the police inquiries and go about his business. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/57 "2015-12-26T14:31:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is disturbing – if the police detained him without even a reasonable, articulable suspicion that he had violated any laws, that detention, even if brief, violated his Fourth Amendment rights. Not sure if ‘detained’ is really the correct word. The police “approached” him and began to talk to him. At that time the guy stopped walking and started talking with the police. If the guy had just ignored the police and continued walking, I don’t know what, if anything, the police would have done. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/58 "2015-12-26T16:28:44Z")
> [@Oddball\_92](#): > > Not sure if ‘detained’ is really the correct word. The police “approached” him and began to talk to him. At that time the guy stopped walking and started talking with the police. If the guy had just ignored the police and continued walking, I don’t know what, if anything, the police would have done. Gotcha. Well, if that’s the case, my guess might be wrong. The police are absolutely entitled to come up and start talking to a person for any reason or no reason at all – as long as he’s free to disregard their inquiry and walk away. Police are well aware of this rule; not all citizens are. So police are very good, sometimes, at exploiting that: stopping someone by using an attitude that seems to demand compliance but later piously asserting that the encounter, at that point, was consensual and the citizen free to walk away. So it behooves the citizen who encounters police to specifically ask if he’s free to go. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/59 "2015-12-27T04:11:26Z")
Will Texas have a standard for open carry? Will a person have to qualify a couple of times a year with a certain proficiency? How about testing competency in regard to the law, lethal use of force, etc…? Yeah, I’m joking. "He just needed killin’ " is a valid defense down there. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338/60 "2015-12-27T04:47:57Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > . "He just needed killin’ " is a valid defense down there. Cite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-gun-carry-is-coming-to-texas/741338.md?page=4)