# Open letter to western governments re: NSA and related topics. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266 "2013-09-07T18:52:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Antichrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@The\_Antichrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Antichrist)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/1 "2013-09-07T18:52:43Z")
Hi, I’ve lurked here a bit, but I don’t think I’ve ever posted before. I just felt I really had to say something on these matters and this board seems to have fairly open-minded moderation and a sizable readership. I’ve tried my best to avoid threats or incitement to criminality so hopefully this post won’t get deleted or edited. Here is the “letter”: As information is revealed about the National Security Agency and the intelligence agencies of other countries, it is becoming increasingly clear that western governments do not only monitor the private communications of suspected murderers. Rather, they monitor the private communications of whomever they please. While the former is distasteful and beneath my standards, the latter is quite intolerable. A typical response is “if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear”. Apart from being untrue, it implies you oughtn’t hide things. I strongly disagree and I have much to hide: my private things. Another response is “every country does that”. Well that wouldn’t make it OK… and does Afghanistan collect the personal information of American or British citizens? Does, say, Mozambique, or Cambodia? No? Then back off. It surprises me that people don’t understand privacy. It is a concept fundamental to humanity, perhaps to life in general. Many animals, cats for instance, seek privacy to defecate and to copulate, amongst other reasons. Would you read someone’s personal diary? Would you look through a stranger’s house? What you do is much the same, and the fact that you have spied in ways the world was not aware of adds another layer to your cruelty. Perhaps some will claim that we don’t want privacy anymore, or that we can’t have privacy these days. Well I for one am going to be different. In fact I have loads and loads of private things, that I will never let governments see. They could be plots and plans to blow up buildings or assassinate people. It’s not your business. They could be chemicals and electronics useful for making bombs. It’s not your business. They could be boxes and boxes of papers and photos and books that document all the dreadful things you’ve done over the years. IT’S NOT YOUR BUSINESS. To all western governments: I hate you very much. I will spend every day of my life trying to bring you down. Your very existence is illegitimate, you say you are democracies but you are not: you have so many secrets and lies that your people do not know what they are voting for. It’s difficult to say how much I hate you without implying criminal intent… maybe: I wish you prolonged misery? Spying is not the only reason I hate you, there are many other equally important reasons. Your unwillingness to prosecute rape allegations seriously or consistently. Your use of mental health systems and the neuroleptic medications, both of which are actually torture methods. Siren harassment. The fact that you have exploited, invaded and demonised Africa and Asia for centuries, only allowing the people “independence” on the condition that their governments are obedient to you…but… it’s not independence if the regime is obedient to you!!! So why do you call them independent??? Your dishonesty is staggering. You then get your media to act like terrorism and oppressive governments just come out of nowhere… or maybe these people are _still_ demons like they always were?!:rolleyes: Then you send your militaries to kill suspected “terrorists” while thousands (millions?) of your paedophile priests continue at the pulpit. What is my real name? Where am I posting this from? What are the professions of each of my family members? Where did I go to college/university? It’s not your freaking business!!! …but undoubtedly some nerdy creep will be able to tell you all of that. Sincerely, The Antichrist. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/2 "2013-09-07T19:25:00Z")
What the hell is siren harassment? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/3 "2013-09-07T19:28:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > What the hell is siren harassment? Having Kenny G accompany them on the sax. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/4 "2013-09-07T19:32:30Z")
> [@The\_Antichrist](#): > > What is my real name? I dunno, but I’ve got your number… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/5 "2013-09-07T19:41:39Z")
> [@The\_Antichrist](#): > > As information is revealed about the National Security Agency and the intelligence agencies of other countries, it is becoming increasingly clear that western governments do not only monitor the private communications of suspected murderers. Rather, they monitor the private communications of whomever they please. Pre-caching data to be examined later in the event that something comes up barely counts as “monitoring”. > [@](#): > > A typical response is “if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear”. Apart from being untrue, it implies you oughtn’t hide things. I strongly disagree and I have much to hide: my private things. You’re begging the question here. You’re basically saying “My private things are sacrosanct because they’re private.” Why _should_ they be private? > [@](#): > > Another response is “every country does that”. Well that wouldn’t make it OK… and does Afghanistan collect the personal information of American or British citizens? Does, say, Mozambique, or Cambodia? No? Then back off. I’d be remarkably surprised if those countries _didn’t_ monitor internet traffic to some extent. > [@](#): > > It surprises me that people don’t understand privacy. It is a concept fundamental to humanity, perhaps to life in general. Many animals, cats for instance, seek privacy to defecate and to copulate, amongst other reasons. I wish someone would tell my cat about that. > [@](#): > > Would you read someone’s personal diary? Would you look through a stranger’s house? What you do is much the same, and the fact that you have spied in ways the world was not aware of adds another layer to your cruelty. _I_ would, because I’m an inherently nosy and curious person. Does that make me “cruel”? > [@](#): > > In fact I have loads and loads of private things, that I will never let governments see. They could be plots and plans to blow up buildings or assassinate people. It’s not your business. They could be chemicals and electronics useful for making bombs. It’s not your business. They could be boxes and boxes of papers and photos and books that document all the dreadful things you’ve done over the years. IT’S NOT YOUR BUSINESS. If you have plans to blow up buildings or assassinate people, then I daresay that it _is_ the government’s business to know about them. > [@](#): > > To all western governments: I hate you very much. I will spend every day of my life trying to bring you down. Your very existence is illegitimate, you say you are democracies but you are not: you have so many secrets and lies that your people do not know what they are voting for. Name a government that you would consider “legitimate” and “democratic”, then. > [@](#): > > Spying is not the only reason I hate you, there are many other equally important reasons. Your unwillingness to prosecute rape allegations seriously or consistently. You _know_ that rape isn’t a federal issue, right? Most crimes against the person are adjudicated at the state level unless they take place on federal property. Your beef is severely misguided. > [@](#): > > Your use of mental health systems and the neuroleptic medications, both of which are actually torture methods. Has anyone informed the medical community that they’re torturing people on the orders of the government? Because they don’t seem to be aware of it. > [@](#): > > Siren harassment. Based on what I can discern from Google, “siren harassment” is a belief that emergency vehicles are running their sirens while driving down your street specifically to annoy _you_. Which, given the “everyone-is-out-to-get-me” tone of the rest of your statement, explains a lot of things. > [@](#): > > The fact that you have exploited, invaded and demonised Africa and Asia for centuries, only allowing the people “independence” on the condition that their governments are obedient to you…but… it’s not independence if the regime is obedient to you!!! So why do you call them independent??? Your dishonesty is staggering. I never realized that those former western colonies Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan, Libya, and Vietnam were known for being obedient. > [@](#): > > You then get your media to act like terrorism and oppressive governments just come out of nowhere… or maybe these people are _still_ demons like they always were?!:rolleyes: Then you send your militaries to kill suspected “terrorists” while thousands (millions?) of your paedophile priests continue at the pulpit. So now the government controls the media _and_ the Catholic church? And you’re blaming them for pedophilia and terrorism while simultaneously saying these things are inherent to human nature? You lack focus, grasshopper. > [@](#): > > What is my real name? Where am I posting this from? What are the professions of each of my family members? Where did I go to college/university? It’s not your freaking business!!! …but undoubtedly some nerdy creep will be able to tell you all of that. You _do_ realize that you yourself voluntarily submitted all this information yourself when you signed up to post on this board, right? And that what information you didn’t directly submit could be gleaned simply by examining that other data? And that all of this could be done by a private citizen with no connection to any of the governments you’re raging against? This is a disjointed and ill-informed rant that only leaves me thinking that you’re the sort of person the NSA’s monitoring schemes were _designed_ to watch out for. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/6 "2013-09-07T19:45:43Z")
You may want to check out [this open letter](http://benlog.com/2013/08/19/letter-to-president-obama-on-surveillance-and-freedom/) from Ben Adida on the subject. A couple of excerpts that raise important points worthy of further consideration: > [@](#): > > If you’re a hypochondriac, you might be tempted to ask your doctor for a full body MRI or CT scan to catch health issues before detectable symptoms. Unfortunately, because of two simple probabilistic principles, you’re much worse off if you get the test. > > First, it is relatively unlikely that a random person with no symptoms has a serious medical problem, ie the prior probability is low. Second, it is quite possible — not likely, but possible — that a completely benign thing appears potentially dangerous on imaging, ie there is a noticeable chance of false positive. Put those two things together, and you get this mind-bending outcome: if the full-body MRI says you have something to worry about, you actually don’t have anything to worry about. But try convincing yourself of that if you get a scary MRI result. > > Mass surveillance to seek out terrorism is basically the same thing: very low prior probability that any given person is a terrorist, quite possible that normal behavior appears suspicious. Mass surveillance means wasting tremendous resources on dead ends. And because we’re human and we make mistakes when given bad data, mass surveillance sometimes means badly hurting innocent people, like [Jean-Charles de Menezes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes). > [@](#): > > This has always felt wrong to me, but I couldn’t express a simple, principled, ethical reason for this feeling, until I spoke with a colleague recently who said it better than I ever could: > > > [@](#): > > > > For society to progress, individuals must be able to experiment very close to the limit of the law and sometimes cross into illegality. A society which perfectly enforces its laws is one that cannot make progress. > > What would have become of the civil rights movement if all of its initial transgressions had been perfectly detected and punished? What about gay rights? Women’s rights? Is there even room for civil disobedience? > > Though we want our laws to reflect morality, they are, at best, a very rough and sometimes completely broken approximation of morality. Our ability as citizens to occasionally transgress the law is the force that brings our society’s laws closer to our moral ideals. We should reject mass surveillance, even the theoretically perfect kind, with all the strength and fury of a people striving to form a more perfect union. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/7 "2013-09-07T20:12:16Z")
You don’t, by any chance, live in a remote cabin somewhere in Montana, do you? Are you really, really good at math? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/8 "2013-09-07T20:15:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Pre-caching data to be examined later in the event that something comes up barely counts as “monitoring”. Normally, I’d expect an argument to flail around in circles a while before descending to the “it depends on what the definition of ‘is’ is” level, but if that’s how you roll, that’s how you roll. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/9 "2013-09-07T20:27:47Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Normally, I’d expect an argument to flail around in circles a while before descending to the “it depends on what the definition of ‘is’ is” level, but if that’s how you roll, that’s how you roll. I would consider “monitoring” to mean that the data is actively reviewed by a human being. Being spidered by a search engine so that it can be reviewed years later when and if a warrant is issued, to me, doesn’t strike me as being spied upon or monitored any more than the fact that State Farm can access my DMV records if I apply for a quote. But that’s really a side note to the general paranoia displayed by the OP. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/10 "2013-09-07T21:33:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You’re begging the question here. You’re basically saying “My private things are sacrosanct because they’re private.” Why _should_ they be private? You do understand the concept of privacy, right? Is this a whoosh? If not a whoosh, the answer to your question is simple: many things are not your or our government’s business. Mind your own fucking business. Respect the privacy of American citizens. To add to the open letter: "Dear US Government, Wholesale monitoring of the people’s communications and interpersonal relationships to one another runs counter to our expected relationship between the government and the citizenry. The surveillance state culture being built will create further distrust and will actually backfire. Surveil and monitor as much as needed. With warrants. Without gag orders. Without secret courts. It can be done, and it will work well with oversight. Regain your integrity and our trust. End the secret data capturing of the entire American population. Stop sharing illegally acquired data with other government agencies. Sincerely, **toofs**" ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/11 "2013-09-07T21:41:32Z")
> [@toofs](#): > > You do understand the concept of privacy, right? Is this a whoosh? > > If not a whoosh, the answer to your question is simple: many things are not your or our government’s business. Mind your own fucking business. Respect the privacy of American citizens. No, it’s not a whoosh. The OP’s argument appears to be that his private business is private _because_ it’s private, which begs the question. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/12 "2013-09-07T22:50:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, it’s not a whoosh. The OP’s argument appears to be that his private business is private _because_ it’s private, which begs the question. Uh, what? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/13 "2013-09-07T22:50:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You don’t, by any chance, live in a remote cabin somewhere in Montana, do you? He could live in his mom’s garage in a Chicago suburb that will remain nameless. And Mr **Antichrist** , aren’t these people and organizations doing your work? You weren’t planning to do all that forehead tattooing yourself, were you? No, you need a staff and now you have one, but you still bitch. Criminy, you’ve had 2000 years to plan this. Your day draweth near and you still don’t have your shit together. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/14 "2013-09-07T23:41:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I would consider “monitoring” to mean that the data is actively reviewed by a human being. Being spidered by a search engine so that it can be reviewed years later when and if a warrant is issued, to me, doesn’t strike me as being spied upon or monitored any more than the fact that State Farm can access my DMV records if I apply for a quote. Were you always this dumb and uninformed, or did you have to work at it? Also, did you keep a straight face while writing the word “warrant”? Please say you did. That makes your post so much more enjoyable. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/15 "2013-09-08T00:18:26Z")
I see **Smapti** is still working as the standard bearer for everything that’s wrong with American society. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/16 "2013-09-08T00:49:01Z")
Welcome to the SDMB, **The Antichrist**! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/17 "2013-09-08T01:23:53Z")
> [@The\_Antichrist](#): > > What is my real name? Were you around when Jesus had his moment of doubt and pain? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/18 "2013-09-08T01:27:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You don’t, by any chance, live in a remote cabin somewhere in Montana, do you? Don’t worry. We know where he lives and it’s not near you. > [@](#): > > Are you really, really good at math? Don’t worry. We have all his report cards. Seriously…don’t worry. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/19 "2013-09-08T01:40:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, it’s not a whoosh. The OP’s argument appears to be that his private business is private _because_ it’s private, which begs the question. Obviously, you are an imbecile. ---
**Author:** ![Psychopants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Psychopants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psychopants)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266/20 "2013-09-08T01:47:09Z")
This might help. Instructions for making your own tinfoil hat. > **[Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie](https://zapatopi.net/afdb/)** > > Information about psychotronic mind control blockage using an Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-letter-to-western-governments-re-nsa-and-related-topics/668266.md?page=2)