# Open Secrets in Hollywood: what else is out there? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 15, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995 "2017-10-15T22:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/121 "2017-11-02T00:15:28Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The December 1989 issue of _Spy_ magazine had a major article on Toback detailing every move and presenting a chart of dozens of women giving his pick-up lines. This was a year or two after _The Pick-Up Artist_ appeared. The whole issue can be found on [scribd.com](http://scribd.com). I remember that article (I still have every \*Spy \*issue from about 1987 on). IIRC, there was a followup in which Toback commented on the article, saying that all of _Spy_’s hit pieces were about Jews and sexually active people. To which _Spy_ replied that they had a number of sexually active Jews on the staff. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/122 "2017-11-02T00:19:56Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Real victims, yes. People who claim the status for a trivial incident decades ago, not so much. …in context: you will be hard-pressed to find a more insulting term than “real victims.” You don’t get to decide who is and isn’t a victim. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/123 "2017-11-02T00:39:11Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Then we’ve lost a great actor for a year, that’s what. And it’s possible he may not return to acting. That may not bother you but it does me. Well, gosh, I’m sorry the guy from “The Usual Suspects” might not be in another movie because people are disgusted by his being a sexual predator. Gosh, it’s more than one person now that he harassed. How about that. I guess you’ll need another example of a person whose career is ruined by a single unsupported allegation. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/124 "2017-11-02T01:52:04Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I don’t understand this point at all. Since other kids are sexually active at 14, the assault Rapp experienced isn’t a crime? From [Rapp’s Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Rapp): “Rapp added that he once met with a lawyer to discuss possible legal action, but was told there was no case worth pursuing.” I’ll concede it was a crime, but it was one of those circumstances that cops are loathe to get involved with and on its own would not have resulted in a conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/125 "2017-11-02T04:32:36Z")
The problem in a court of law is the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard. I testify Spacey grabbed me, threw me on the bed, and groped me until I escaped. Spacey testifies, “No I didn’t”. The case goes to the jury. Was the charge against Spacey proved beyond a reasonable doubt? Is there any particular reason the jury is going to believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Spacey’s testimony is a lie? Or is there a reasonable doubt about my testimony? If I’m a teenage gay club kid in 1985, you bet there is. In general, “he said, she said” cases are very difficult to bring to trial because it’s very difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt events that only two people witnessed and are telling conflicting stories about. It can happen, but only when there’s some reason for the prosecution to think that a jury would be very likely to believe the victim over the defendant. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/126 "2017-11-02T05:07:37Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > On a separate note, I have to wonder whether Hollywood/the entertainment industry has more open secrets than politics, business,or medicine, or education, or if it just seems that way. I’m guessing it probably seems that way because entertainment is considered frivolous and not as important as the other things you mentioned. Secrets in Hollywood, if inadvertently disclosed, can at worst “merely” ruin the careers of a few people or lead to the collapse of a studio. Also, the entertainment industry has a long-term reputation for being on the shady side so people’s moral expectations are a lot lower. On the other hand, secrets in fields like politics or business have more weight because they have the potential to do things like cause wars, bring down governments, or tank the economy. Still, that doesn’t mean such open secrets do not exist. Case in point: everybody has known for years that the Israelis have nuclear weapons even though they have never publicly admitted it. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/127 "2017-11-02T07:25:49Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > So if you were alone at a party and I were to approach you, grab you, carry you to the bed, then laid on top of you holding you in place until you struggled free, you’d be cool with that ‘trivial incident’? What would make it non-trivial - would I need to remove some clothes, or get further along in touching you? I’ve had much worse happen to me as a kid and I still don’t count myself a lifelong victim. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/128 "2017-11-02T07:44:09Z")
The more I hear about Spacey, the more I dread finding out he tried something with Haley Osment. Hoping that what I’ve heard about Michael Osment _is_ true: that he was super vigilant about both his children, and wouldn’t have allowed a predator the slightest opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/129 "2017-11-02T07:45:16Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I’ve had much worse happen to me as a kid and I still don’t count myself a lifelong victim. Sounds like you’re conflating having been a victim of sexual assault with somehow defining one’s entire identity around one’s victimization status. They are not the same thing. If somebody was sexually assaulted, even decades ago, they have the right to come forward about it at any time to confront and/or denounce the perpetrator. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they are “counting themselves a lifelong victim”, whatever you actually mean by that. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/131 "2017-11-02T08:58:28Z")
I hear several gerbils are planning a lawsuit against a certain former A-list celeb. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/132 "2017-11-02T09:13:39Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I’ve had much worse happen to me as a kid and I still don’t count myself a lifelong victim. The human mind is a funny thing. You hurt someone once, they think something horrible happened to them. You hurt someone a dozen times, they start thinking that getting hurt is normal, and resent people who feel otherwise. I’ve seen it happen. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/133 "2017-11-02T12:00:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > If somebody was sexually assaulted, even decades ago, they have the right to come forward about it at any time to confront and/or denounce the perpetrator. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they are “counting themselves a lifelong victim”, whatever you actually mean by that. Sure they have the right and if they were the victim of rape or something equally horrible I’ll listen and respect them. If however it was one trivial incident years ago then I equally have the right to say get over it. Rapp is pathetic and by ‘counting themselves a lifelong victim’ I mean coming forward decades later and attempting to put yourself on the same level with victims of serious sexual assault. That shows utter disrespect for those women and men who have been truly scarred for life by rape, etc. Does anyone really believe that Rapp spends every night sobbing into his pillow, completely unable to live a normal and productive life? If so your naïveté is of a high order indeed. Rapp saw a chance for some free publicity and grabbed it. Nothing succeeds like victim status these days. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/134 "2017-11-02T12:37:41Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Sure they have the right and if they were the victim of rape or something equally horrible I’ll listen and respect them. If however it was one trivial incident years ago then I equally have the right to say get over it. Rapp is pathetic and by ‘counting themselves a lifelong victim’ I mean coming forward decades later and attempting to put yourself on the same level with victims of serious sexual assault. That shows utter disrespect for those women and men who have been truly scarred for life by rape, etc. Does anyone really believe that Rapp spends every night sobbing into his pillow, completely unable to live a normal and productive life? If so your naïveté is of a high order indeed. Rapp saw a chance for some free publicity and grabbed it. Nothing succeeds like victim status these days. Or maybe Rapp said to himself “I have a story to tell that I’ve been holding back for years out of fear, and I’m no longer afraid, and I’m going to tell my story.” Shame on you for shitting on someone for nothing more than coming forward and telling their story of something that happened to them against their will. Seriously. Shame on you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/135 "2017-11-02T12:44:46Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Does anyone really believe that Rapp spends every night sobbing into his pillow, completely unable to live a normal and productive life? Has Rapp said any such thing? Not that I can tell. He’s been telling the story to friends since 1990, so it’s not true to suggest he’s only coming forward now. According to him, he’s coming forward now because he’s been inspired to by the bravery of others. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/136 "2017-11-02T12:47:03Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Sure they have the right and if they were the victim of rape or something equally horrible I’ll listen and respect them. If however it was one trivial incident years ago then I equally have the right to say get over it. Rapp is pathetic and by ‘counting themselves a lifelong victim’ I mean coming forward decades later and attempting to put yourself on the same level with victims of serious sexual assault. That shows utter disrespect for those women and men who have been truly scarred for life by rape, etc. Does anyone really believe that Rapp spends every night sobbing into his pillow, completely unable to live a normal and productive life? If so your naïveté is of a high order indeed. Rapp saw a chance for some free publicity and grabbed it. Nothing succeeds like victim status these days. Translation: Bad stuff happened to me, and I’ve never felt that I have dealt with it. So I am going to criticize someone else who had bad stuff happen to them who is dealing with it, because it triggers me. Seriously, seek help. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/137 "2017-11-02T13:36:42Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I’ve had much worse happen to me as a kid and I still don’t count myself a lifelong victim. You dodged the question, as expected. If I were to do this to you, would you regard it as a trivial incident or not? It’s a VERY simple question, and the fact that you refuse to answer says a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/138 "2017-11-02T13:48:59Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Do you have a graph we could borrow that demonstrates how good an actor one must be to negate a given severity of crime? We’d hate to upset your movie watching any more than we already have. We can just re-use the “how many television viewers do you have to have to get away with punching your boss in the face” one we made for Jeremy Clarkson. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/139 "2017-11-02T13:50:01Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Are you saying that most Americans find gay peoples’ lives “sordid”? Well, yeah. The straight equivalent of gay bars is Bennigan’s, and there is no straight equivalent of bath houses. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/140 "2017-11-02T13:51:34Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > You dodged the question, as expected. If I were to do this to you, would you regard it as a trivial incident or not? It’s a VERY simple question, and the fact that you refuse to answer says a lot. Yes, I’d regard it as trivial and I’d move on with my life. (As indeed I have done over far more substantial incidents.) Satisfied? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995/141 "2017-11-02T14:43:09Z")
Latest accusation against [Hoffman](http://www.indiewire.com/2017/11/dustin-hoffman-accused-sexual-harassment-wendy-riss-gatsiounis-anna-graham-hunter-1201893439/). Basically he asked a woman if she’d sleep with a guy over 40 and then invited her to go to a hotel with him. Oh, and earlier he rebuked one of his friends for talking dirty in front of her. These incidents were apparently a ‘source of torment to her for years after’. Remember, she was an adult woman when this happened. Now she parades her memories as if Hoffman had thrown her over a couch and raped her. I am delighted that pigs like Weinstein who really did abuse women are getting their just deserts but this particular story about Hoffman is total bullshit and cheapens those who do have real stories of abuse to tell. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-secrets-in-hollywood-what-else-is-out-there/798995.md?page=8)