# Open the US/Canada border fully **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632 "2012-02-12T22:09:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/81 "2012-02-18T02:58:10Z")
Actually, I was surprised, based on experience in Central America. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/82 "2012-02-18T03:32:15Z")
In your relaxed border scenario, are American’s surrendering their firearms anywhere? Because Canadian’s hold pretty dear, their society of largely _unarmed_ citizen’s. You may not see this as an issue of any importance. I assure you, for Canadian’s, it is. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/83 "2012-02-18T08:06:01Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I think what is worrying **elbows** about your assertion (and **elbows** , if I’m wrong, please correct me), is that if there was an open border, then Canadians would adopt the American attitude towards firearms, and we’d have a bunch of people obtaining firearms for self-defense, without observing the necessary legalities. There would be no checks to ensure safe storage, no checks to ensure that the prospective owner knew how the firearm worked, and no guarantees that children would be unable to get at a fully-loaded firearm. Who knows what else might happen? It would be a way to keep those pesky religious people off your doorstep, that’s for sure. And little Johnny could take care of the schoolyard bully permanently. Note that I’m not saying that these things will happen, but they are the fear that keeps our controls such as they are. How many people do you perceive as wanting this to happen in Canada? What I’m saying is that if something more than a small minority of people want to own firearms for self defense, then when does your desire to have it your way give way to the desires of a large portion of the population? What burns my butt going through customs is that it isn’t about contraband, but taxes. I had a customs official say his job was to protect Canadian business. From what? Competition? And I had to pay for noncompetitive businesses with money taken from me? Was the money he took from me going to these businesses? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/84 "2012-02-18T08:49:04Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > What burns my butt going through customs is that it isn’t about contraband, but taxes. I had a customs official say his job was to protect Canadian business. From what? Competition? And I had to pay for noncompetitive businesses with money taken from me? Was the money he took from me going to these businesses? We now have a free trade agreement with the USA. When someone from Canada purchases something in the USA for personal use, the funds paid when it is brought across the border into Canada reflect the sales tax that otherwise would have been paid had the item been purchased in Canada. It is not an industry protection. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/85 "2012-02-18T08:49:05Z")
> [@robinson](#): > > Actually, I was surprised, based on experience in Central America. “1200 miles from the real America . . .” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/86 "2012-02-18T08:55:55Z")
But if proposed legislation in Mississippi goes through, at least the Gulf of Mexico will be [renamed the Gulf of America](http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=house%20bill%20no.%20150%20&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbillstatus.ls.state.ms.us%2Fdocuments%2F2012%2Fpdf%2FHB%2F0100-0199%2FHB0150IN.pdf&ei=Q2c_T8mPJeHu0gHU5cDrBw&usg=AFQjCNHz8_p3i4Z_5n9lCnem8lCLlDSllw&sig2=WGnO-QbyGp-trVBQABID5w). (A real bill, but not made with the intent of it passing.) ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/87 "2012-02-18T10:47:33Z")
Jumping back in to address this: > [@Uzi](#): > > How many people do you perceive as wanting this to happen in Canada? I dunno. Lots? People hereabouts in southern Alberta seem to think that firearms are for self-defense, and are pissed that Canada won’t let them use them as such. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/88 "2012-02-18T14:41:07Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I dunno. Lots? People hereabouts in southern Alberta seem to think that firearms are for self-defense, and are pissed that Canada won’t let them use them as such. And if they were allowed to use firearms for defense (which anyone who owns a firearm can do now, btw), what do you think the consequences would be? Is there a law that you can’t use your firearm for self defense in Canada if someone is threatening your life? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/89 "2012-02-18T15:02:10Z")
The problem is that the more handguns that people have for defense, be the possession legal or illegal, the more handguns will be used in domestic disputes by those people, and the more handguns will be stolen and used by other people for offence. The more guns, the more gun deaths, as is amply demonstrated in the USA. The question then is whether opening the border would lead to an increase in handguns as a result of there no longer being any searches or significant possibility of searches at the border, regardless of the legality or illegality of possession. ---
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/90 "2012-02-18T15:34:32Z")
Considering how easy it would be to smuggle firearms across the nearly 3000 miles of unmonitored and unsecured borders, I cannot see how that would be an issue for the borders to be unsecured. I’ve only been to canada once. Crossed over from minnesota to ontario. I was amazed when I went through the border checkpoint, because _nothing changed_. The people even have the same accent on both sides. I’ve been all over europe as well, and even there it amazed how similar everything was. Language issues aside, I didn’t visit a single country so different I was incapable of functioning. Borders just confuse me though. Completely nonsensical. Why does anyone care where I travel or where I live so long as I follow the laws and pay the taxes? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/91 "2012-02-18T15:43:35Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Jumping back in to address this: > > I dunno. Lots? People hereabouts in southern Alberta seem to think that firearms are for self-defense, and are pissed that Canada won’t let them use them as such. Since when was it illegal to use a firearm in self defense in Canada? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/92 "2012-02-18T15:50:45Z")
What changed was invisible to you. The peoples walking about, being just like you, were unarmed, and those around them, felt comfortable in the knowledge. We don’t want a return to frontier days, where people have to have a gun, because everyone else is armed. It’s a arms race, sort of issue. We don’t want to go there. Keep in mind, most of us live close to your border, we all have access to US local evening news. Top story, every damn day, gunshot deaths. Domestic disputes, drive bys, robberies, muggings gone wrong, gang violence, whatever, it’s always gunshot deaths. We’re happy with our gun controls. We like having guns in the hands of trained hunters, predominantly. We don’t want to see a shift closer to what you have, we see the cost. We, unlike yourselves, prefer to forgo a right for each of us to arm ourselves, in favour of a safer community, on it’s face. Something, we are given to, understand, no righteous American could ever, ever, possibly abide. Yes, we have gunshot deaths and crime of every stripe, I’m not denying it. And illegal guns do, indeed, make it across the border as contraband. But by orders of magnitude fewer, we like to think, largely because of our stand on gun control. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/93 "2012-02-18T17:32:57Z")
I’ve lived in the US my entire life and I have never owned a gun. I’ve never felt that I needed one to defend myself. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/94 "2012-02-18T20:54:28Z")
> [@CutterJohn](#): > > I’ve only been to canada once. Crossed over from minnesota to ontario. I was amazed when I went through the border checkpoint, because _nothing changed_. The people even have the same accent on both sides. I’ve been all over europe as well, and even there it amazed how similar everything was. Language issues aside, I didn’t visit a single country so different I was incapable of functioning. Funny that, isn’t it. All those socialists, as well. Bless. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/95 "2012-02-18T21:08:11Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Since when was it illegal to use a firearm in self defense in Canada? It would depend on the firearm (restricted v. non-restricted). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/96 "2012-02-18T23:16:45Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > It would depend on the firearm (restricted v. non-restricted). No, it wouldn’t. The act of self-defense is independent of the act of owning an illegal firearm. If I owned an illegal firearm, I could be charged with that crime whether I was using it in self defense or just had it in my house. If I use the weapon in legal self defense, I could be charged with possessing an illegal firearm but if the act of self defense is legal, it’s legal; the firearm charge is a separate matter. Conversely, if I legally own a firearm but use it to blow someone away in a manner that is not justifiable self defense, I’ve still committed a crime. So I ask again: since when has it been illegal in Canada to use a firearm in self defense? A reference to the section of the Criminal Code that makes it illegal should be easy to find. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/97 "2012-02-19T00:11:50Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > No, it wouldn’t. The act of self-defense is independent of the act of owning an illegal firearm. > > If I owned an illegal firearm, I could be charged with that crime whether I was using it in self defense or just had it in my house. If I use the weapon in legal self defense, I could be charged with possessing an illegal firearm but if the act of self defense is legal, it’s legal; the firearm charge is a separate matter. > > Conversely, if I legally own a firearm but use it to blow someone away in a manner that is not justifiable self defense, I’ve still committed a crime. > > So I ask again: since when has it been illegal in Canada to use a firearm in self defense? A reference to the section of the Criminal Code that makes it illegal should be easy to find. It is illegal in Canada to use a firearm for self defense if the firearm is a restricted weapon for which the person who uses it is does not have the proper authorization. Have a look at section 91 of the Criminal Code. You said it yourself: " If I owned an illegal firearm, I could be charged with that crime whether I was using it in self defense or just had it in my house." ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/98 "2012-02-19T02:24:16Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > It is illegal in Canada to use a firearm for self defense if the firearm is a restricted weapon for which the person who uses it is does not have the proper authorization. Have a look at section 91 of the Criminal Code. You said it yourself: " If I owned an illegal firearm, I could be charged with that crime whether I was using it in self defense or just had it in my house." You do not understand. I’m not asking if some firearms are illegal in Canada; I am asking that someone provide me with evidence it is illegal to use a firearm in self defense in Canada. Section 91 of the Criminal Code does not make it illegal to use a firearm in self defense. It says nothing of the kind. It says some weapons are illegal to possess - but if you used one in self defense you would not be breaking any law against using a weapon in self defense. Your breaking the law against possessing the weapon is not relevant to the act of self defense. The act of self defense is legal or illegal completely irrespective of whether or not you have a license to possess the firearm you used. I ask again for a specific cite to a Canadian law that states it is \*\*illegal to use a firearm in self defence. \*\* It’s the third time I’ve asked. Does anyone have an answer? (It’s a rhetorical question; there is no such law.) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/99 "2012-02-19T03:16:32Z")
Actually, I understand the Criminal Code pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632/100 "2012-02-19T05:31:59Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Actually, I understand the Criminal Code pretty well. Then you should have no problem beating me to the part of the Criminal Code that says using a firearm in self defense is an offense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/open-the-us-canada-border-fully/612632.md?page=6)