# Opening acts, yea or nay? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 30, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176 "2009-05-30T16:39:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/41 "2009-05-31T16:04:20Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The only bands in your list that I’ve ever heard of are Lynyrd Skynyrd, Jeff Beck, Joe Cocker, Tommy Tutone, and the Blue Oyster Cult. And I can’t name a Blue Oyster Cult song, I’m just aware of their existence. So this just proves most opening acts are nobodies, IMHO. I’ve heard of 75% of that list. I realize that you were being tongue in cheek but most of that list isn’t obscure. ---
**Author:** ![DfrntBreign](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f6c823/32.png) [@DfrntBreign](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DfrntBreign)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/42 "2009-05-31T16:10:31Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The only bands in your list that I’ve ever heard of are Lynyrd Skynyrd, Jeff Beck, Joe Cocker, Tommy Tutone, and the Blue Oyster Cult. And I can’t name a Blue Oyster Cult song, I’m just aware of their existence. So this just proves most opening acts are nobodies, IMHO. No. The point, which you seem to not get is that a lot, if not most of these bands were “nobodies” when I saw them open for other acts. All of them went on to headline in the next few years. And whether you’ve heard of them or not, more than half of them are still working in one form or another. Derek Trucks just released a new CD a couple of months ago. Aaron Squirrel is a local Norman guy you should be trying to book for your next frat party. If you have no interest in where your music comes from, then you don’t. _it ain’t nothin’ to meee it ain’t nothin’ to meee_\* But by ignoring the opening acts of today you’re putting yourself behind the curve for what will come next. \*Johnny Winter, somebody else you’ll not have heard of. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/43 "2009-05-31T16:11:05Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Are you 15 or you live under a rock? > > You’re going to tell me you’ve never heard of Heart (Barracuda), Foghat (Slow Ride, Fool for the City), Survivor (Eye of the Tiger, Is this Love?), The Guess Who (American Woman), or Joan Jett? Yes, I live under a rock. :rolleyes: And of course I’ve heard of all of those bands, they’re the famous ones from the list. But for the record, I’m 27 and have never heard of Mahavishnu Orchestra, Climax Blues Band, West Bruce and Lang, Sun Ra, Jack Dejohnette, Lake, Golden Earring Blackfoot, Saxon, Fastway, Shooting Star, Yngwie Malmsteen, The Motels, Robin Trower and a few others from the list. Wiki-ing a few names doesn’t lead me to any obvious reasons _why_ I should have heard of any of them. The 2nd tier bands of yesterday are going to be just as obscure to the average 20something as the 2nd tier bands of today are to the average middle-aged person. Of the three bands I listed in my first post in this thread (Matt Nathanson, Guster and Flickerstick), how many people over 45-50 could say they’ve heard of all three? ---
**Author:** ![Idlewild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8491ac/32.png) [@Idlewild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idlewild)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/44 "2009-05-31T16:14:56Z")
And arguably, just because an opening act is relatively unknown, doesn’t mean they don’t make great music. We saw Amiina open for Sigur Rós, and they were just lovely. But Sigur Rós is already verging into art music territory from popular music, and Amiina perhaps even more so. The next time we saw Amiina, they were playing in a museum venue. We saw Tom Brosseau open for them, and he’s pretty obscure, but he has an amazing voice for the sort of folk-country that keeps the myth of the American frontier alive and well. Do I expect everyone to recognize the names of these performers? Not really. Were they worth seeing in concert? Very much so. Regardless of the fact that acts aren’t “nobodies” just because one person doesn’t recognize them, I really don’t see why being less well known is automatically a reason to dismiss opening performers. ---
**Author:** ![RedRosesForMe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/91b2a8/32.png) [@RedRosesForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRosesForMe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/45 "2009-05-31T17:27:24Z")
Well put, **Idlewild**. I come from the punk scene, and except for a few “real” concerts (i.e. mainstream) most of the bands I’ve seen are people you will probably have never heard of. The Pogues, Flogging Molly, and Toots and the Maytals are the only bands I can come up with that more than 2 Dopers have probably heard of, and that’s pushing it. Oh wait, Against Me! is on MTV now, aren’t they? Well I remember when James was in a mediocre local punk band, and have seen Against Me! when they were playing dives, so I guess that counts. So in my music scene, opening acts were always appreciated. Punk shows around here usually had the format of 1) Local band first, sometimes of dubious musical quality but often great musicians in their own right 2) fairly obscure band doing their first national tour on their way to making it big (as big as “big” is in punk, anyway) and 3) headliners. When you come from a music scene that is outside of the mainstream, you’re free to make your own decisions about music instead of having it forcefed to you (not to disparage other posters’ musical tastes, as you Cafe folks probably know way more about music than I do). Those nobodies may not be popular, but they can certainly rock your face off and have done it for me many times. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/46 "2009-05-31T20:19:47Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Two Loons were [amazing](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDhzKIh7Z3I). Following up my own post with a correct URL. Thank you again, _so_ much Mr. Jobs, for the ONLY computer in the universe with no cut & paste. ---
**Author:** ![hroark2112](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6a8cbe/32.png) [@hroark2112](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hroark2112)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/47 "2009-05-31T20:41:45Z")
Some of my favorite bands are bands I saw first as opening bands. Rush opening up for Kiss in 1976 (I think?) Queensryche opening up for Kiss the day before I left for boot camp in 1985 Disturbed on one of those mega-band tours Chevelle on the same tour Three opening for Dream Theater last year Five Finger Death Punch on the second stage at the Mayhem Festival Some other bands I like (just not favorites) I’ve also seen as opening bands: Anthrax opening for Iron Maiden Primus opening for Rush (already mentioned) Drowning Pool at some mega band festival Candlebox opening for Metallica Static X opening for some band I can’t even remember! Overall, I’ve found some good bands watching the opening acts. I’ve also seen some REALLY crappy bands (Rush fans from the old days will remember Rory Gallagher and Mr. Big) and some stuff I’ve said “meh” to as well. My favorite concerts of all time have been bands that have done “An Evening With” type shows, 3 hours of their own stuff. Rush has done this for several years, and Dream Theater used to do that. Nothing like seeing close to 4 hours of your favorite band like when DT played the Beacon Theater in 2002. I’ve also loved seeing Billy Joel & Elton John play together, they do some awesome shows. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/48 "2009-05-31T23:01:06Z")
Opening acts I have enjoyed: The Moody Blues ( for Cream) Led Zeppelin (for The Who) Yes (for Jethro Tull) J. Geils Band ( for Emerson, Lake and Palmer) Junior Brown (for John Prine) Shawn Colvin (for John Hiatt) Richard Thompson (for John Hiatt) Mary Chapin Carpenter (for John Hiatt) John Hiatt (for Jackson Browne) Great Big Sea (for Squeeze) I’m sure there are some cool ones I’m not remembering right now. I’m in favor of opening acts. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/49 "2009-06-01T05:21:08Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Are you serious? You’ve _never heard of_ the Mahavishnu Orchestra, Sun Ra, Joan Jett, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Robin Trower, the Guess Who, Heart, Dave Mason, Spirit, Little Feat, or Buddy Guy??? Where’ve you been living, under a rock? Quite seriously, No, I’ve never heard of them. And no, I haven’t been living under a rock, just in a country that isn’t the US, and I’m not part of the “Music Scene” (Just because I’m 27 doesn’t mean I live for Music, you know). Why _should_ I have heard of these bands? I could probably name several authors of the top of my head that are obscure to you but are extremely well-known in literary/historical circles, for example- I don’t ask if you’ve been living under a rock because you’ve never heard of (for example) Jan Morris, Simon Winchester, or Antony Beevor (No Googling or Wiking, now!), after all. > [@](#): > > But by ignoring the opening acts of today you’re putting yourself behind the curve for what will come next. And? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/50 "2009-06-01T07:49:25Z")
A few of the great opening bands I’ve seen, though they’re “nobodies” to most people: **[Imogen Heap](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cpSv2mNhhc)** opening for Rufus Wainwright, many many years before she caught on. I got to meet her after the show and she was very sweet. **[Noe Venable](http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CE80DD12E71318AC)** opening for some name, I can’t even remember who now, because Noe blew me away and rocked my world. **[Lisa Germano](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohldk_DzcLk&feature=related)** opening for [Mouth](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqY3qpNMx9c) [Music](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdlfr_5TM78&feature=related). I’d never heard of her and was just floored. [QUOTE=DfrntBreign] I’ve learned not to ignore the opening acts. Some of them are going to be headlining by the end of the year [/QUOTE] Yep, sometimes opening bands go on to become huge, and it’s fun to say you saw them when they were an opening band. My best example from back when I was into regular rock was when I went to see a now-obscure guitarist named **Ronnie Montrose** in concert, when he was touring to support an amazing album called [Open Fire](http://www.guitar9.com/openfirerev1.html). I had become a fan when he appeared on a late night TV show called [Midnight Special](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVBMJickUeM) when he played the mesmerizing “Town Without Pity.” (Midnight Special is also where I first heard of and heard the music of a then-unknown band called [Genesis](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ga8o_genesis-on-the-midnight-special-tel_music), with this bizarre lead singer named Peter Gabriel who wore strange costumes and outlandish makeup, but whose music was like nothing I’d never heard before and it, literally, changed my life.) Montrose was headlining. There were two opening bands that I’d never heard of and before the music started I was all pissy because I wanted to hear Montrose right away. Well, both bands were really really good, and I bought albums by both of them the next day. I didn’t become permanent fans, but I sure did like those albums. My tastes used to be very different. The first opening band was the then-unknown **Van Halen** , touring to support their just-released first album. The second opening band was the then-barely known **Journey** , touring to support their 4th album (and the one that finally broke them into the big time after toiling in obscurity) Infinity. Montrose, the headliner, is today almost completely forgotten. Such a shame. > [@There\_Goes\_a\_Tenner](#): > > … Just wanted to say I like your username! ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/51 "2009-06-01T08:07:08Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Quite seriously, No, I’ve never heard of them. And no, I haven’t been living under a rock, just in a country that isn’t the US Quite a few of the bands mentioned aren’t American. Just the ones I can name offhand… The Guess Who are Canadian. Golden Earring are Dutch. Foghat are British. I can’t say I’ve heard of everyone in DfrntBreign’s list, and I certainly can’t say how popular the various bands I do recognize are outside Canada and their home countries (if not Canada), but that you don’t know them speaks a lot more of your ignorance of the wider musical world, not their being ‘nobodies’. Especially if you can’t even name Don’t Fear The Reaper, which isn’t exactly an obscure cut. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/52 "2009-06-01T08:18:32Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > I can’t say I’ve heard of everyone in DfrntBreign’s list, and I certainly can’t say how popular the various bands I do recognize are outside Canada and their home countries (if not Canada), but that you don’t know them speaks a lot more of your ignorance of the wider musical world, not their being ‘nobodies’. And yet, you still haven’t answered my or **Martini** ’s question. _Why_ should we have heard of these bands? To give just one example, Wikipedia lists **West, Bruce and Laing** as a “blues rock trio.” I could probably count on one hand all of the “blues” artists I’ve heard of, and all of them appeared in The Blues Brothers. There’s also the fact that they only released three albums and disbanded nearly a decade before I was born. I ask again, _why_ should I have heard of them? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/53 "2009-06-01T08:51:15Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > And yet, you still haven’t answered my or **Martini** ’s question. _Why_ should we have heard of these bands? They are internationally known bands. That he doesn’t know them speaks entirely of his ignorance, not their obscurity. Being (not particularly) young, being non-American…none of that is an excuse for not knowing the bands in question - a good number of them are not American, so the fact that they’re known in the US at all makes talking as though they’re obscure local bands silly. I’m not American, either, nor am I particularly old. Yet, I: a) know more of the bands than he does, and b) cop to my own ignorance when I look at the list and see I’ve heard of less than 3/4 of them, rather than claiming being a young(ish) Canadian means I can’t possibly be expected to have heard of them unless I’m some sort of obsessive with a room full of vinyl. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/54 "2009-06-01T09:06:59Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > They are internationally known bands. That he doesn’t know them speaks entirely of his ignorance, not their obscurity. > > Being (not particularly) young, being non-American…none of that is an excuse for not knowing the bands in question - a good number of them are not American, so the fact that they’re known in the US at all makes talking as though they’re obscure local bands silly. > > I’m not American, either, nor am I particularly old. Yet, I: a) know more of the bands than he does, and b) cop to my own ignorance when I look at the list and see I’ve heard of less than 3/4 of them, rather than claiming being a young(ish) Canadian means I can’t possibly be expected to have heard of them unless I’m some sort of obsessive with a room full of vinyl. FTR, I wasn’t raising my age as an excuse for not knowing- it was me saying I am supposedly in the target demographic for the Music Is My Life thing. Completely unscientific, but I asked some of my friends at university today if any of the band names meant anything to them and, for the most part, they had no idea who they were. (Obviously they’d heard of some of them, same as myself). Ignorant is not knowing who Hannah Montana or Radiohead or Queen or Nirvana or someone else equally High Profile is- artists/groups who are on the radio, on TV, who have CDs for sale from reputable, chain record stores and not demos/EPs sold out of the back of the drummer’s panel van in the carpark. Saying “Sorry, I’ve never heard of these bands which, and let’s be fair here, have zero profile to the Average Person In The Street (who is totally different to the average poster on the SDMB)” is not ignorant. It’s simply _having never heard of a band which I have no reason to have ever heard of_. And, as yet, I’ve yet to hear a compelling reason from the “They are so famous and not obscure!” brigade as to _why_ I, or any other Average Non-Musical Enthusiast Person should have heard of them. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/55 "2009-06-01T14:39:35Z")
Sometimes, the opening act has been hand-picked by the headliner as someone worthy of more recognition. [Another Roadside Attraction](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_Roadside_Attraction_(festival)) was an outstanding example of a band selecting other acts that influenced them, whose sound they liked, that they thought were cool, etc. The Police used to do the [Police Picnic](http://www.scarlet.nl/~gugten/s19820813.htm) in Toronto with the same kind of motivation. Opening acts I’ve heard that were noteworthy - Change of Heart and The Odds opening for The Tragically Hip The Meat Puppets opening for Nirvana FM opening for Rush Max Webster opening for Rush Crash Test Dummies opening for Elvis Costello Cano opening for FM ---
**Author:** ![JuliaSqueezer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@JuliaSqueezer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JuliaSqueezer)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/56 "2009-06-01T14:58:45Z")
Funny that twickster goes to see Derek Trucks and has to sit through an opening act. We went to see Santana last summer and Derek Trucks WAS the opening act. Never heard of him but liked him. He came out later and played with Carlos Santana… and wow. So good. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/57 "2009-06-01T15:09:29Z")
> [@JuliaSqueezer](#): > > We went to see Santana last summer and Derek Trucks WAS the opening act. Never heard of him but liked him. He came out later and played with Carlos Santana… and wow. So good. Yeah, I’d like to hear them together sometime. **green with envy** ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/58 "2009-06-01T15:22:40Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Went to see Derek Trucks [last night](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11193647#post11193647), and was disappointed to learn, upon getting to the theater, that there was an opening act. Actually, I’m almost always disappointed when there’s an opening act – generally, I’ve bought the tickets to hear the people I want to hear, and I get impatient about sitting through a set by an act I’ve never heard of before we can get to the good stuff. > > I’m sure not every single opening act I’ve experienced has been bad (or at least irrelevant and thus annoying), but I’m having a hard time coming up with counterexamples. > > What say you? I’ve been pleasantly surprised by opening acts over the years (though I’m hard pressed to come up with specifics). However, my husband came unglued when Macy Gray opened for David Bowie. The genres were a million miles apart, and her performance wasn’t what we were geared up for. It bothered me less than it bothered him, but it still sucked. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/59 "2009-06-01T15:26:32Z")
> [@JuliaSqueezer](#): > > Funny that twickster goes to see Derek Trucks and has to sit through an opening act. > > We went to see Santana last summer and Derek Trucks WAS the opening act. Never heard of him but liked him. He came out later and played with Carlos Santana… and wow. So good. I would have killed to see that show. I finally came up with an example of great opening act. We saw Joe Cocker and Johnny Winter opened for him. Shooooweee! That was an awesome concert. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176/60 "2009-06-01T15:38:42Z")
I was at this concert: > [@](#): > > The last time I saw Iggy was in 1980. I was among 80,000 wound-up fans packed inside the Pontiac Silverdome, who mercilessly booed the band off-stage after less than two songs. > > After being pelted with flying glass beer bottles and other projectiles, a less-than-grateful Iggy waved good-bye to the crowd with one finger and shared a few familiar expletives before storming off the stage. > > * * * > > Besides, the impatient Silverdome crowd wasn’t there to see Iggy. We were there to see the headliners, Santana and the Rolling Stones. [http://www.mlive.com/entertainment/muskegon/index.ssf/2009/03/iggy\_and\_the\_stooges\_pop\_into.html](http://www.mlive.com/entertainment/muskegon/index.ssf/2009/03/iggy_and_the_stooges_pop_into.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-acts-yea-or-nay/498176.md?page=4)