# Opening Flood Gates? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 15, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978 "2011-05-15T13:08:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/21 "2011-05-16T02:55:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > John McPhee discussed the subject very well [here](http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1987/02/23/1987_02_23_039_TNY_CARDS_000347146?currentPage=all). Pre-Katrina but still applicable and still very readable. Fascinating, thanks. The amount of competing interests is compelling, as is the variety of industries that rely on the river being “this way” or “that way”. I had no idea of the diversity of converging interests. I’ll have to email this to my Dad, who used to be the Deputy Chief of Engineers in the Corps up until his retirement in 1999. That is a great article. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/22 "2011-05-16T02:57:42Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > On the contrary. If the Corps of Engineers hadn’t restricted the river to a narrow channel, preventing it from finding a natural course, and preventing it from soaking into large tracts of land the way it used to, this year’s problems would be a lot less. > > The Corps is totally responsible for the height of the river and the resulting damage thereof. > > That’s not to say that there wouldn’t be damage without the controls, but it would be different. You can’t fool Mother Nature. Possibly, but they do their work at the behest of Congress, and by proxy, the constituents of the people that live in, around and by the river and profit or subside in some way by its existence. They don’t operate in a vacuum. Read the article **Elvis1Lives** posted. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/23 "2011-05-16T03:00:46Z")
I never said the Corps acted on their own, but the work they did, regardless of who ordered it, is largely responsible for ordinary floods becoming extraordinary. Instead of spreading the water out, they concentrated it and prevented it from entering the water table the way it used to. John McPhee’s article describes it well. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/24 "2011-05-16T03:01:36Z")
If we didn’t **Open The Floodgates** every so often, people would forget the expression. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/25 "2011-05-16T03:47:25Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I never said the Corps acted on their own, You said they were “totally responsible”, which is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/26 "2011-05-16T03:50:37Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > How do you even prepare for something like that? :eek:😕 Apparently, despite the spending of billions; one can’t. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/27 "2011-05-16T04:04:26Z")
To be fair, it’s cost-prohibitive to design for such extreme events; you end up with a bunch of expensive infrastructure which rarely gets used. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/28 "2011-05-16T08:40:05Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > You said they were “totally responsible”, which is incorrect. They are _totally_ responsible for the construction of the river diversions, levees and spillways. No one else builds such works on that river. And while the initiation of such actions may reside with political bodies, the actions recommended and eventually taken are the responsibility of the Corps. Congress may say “do something,” but it’s the Corps that decides what, how and where to do it. The ultimate responsibility lies with the Corps. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/29 "2011-05-16T12:23:30Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > They are _totally_ responsible for the construction of the river diversions, levees and spillways. No one else builds such works on that river. > > And while the initiation of such actions may reside with political bodies, the actions recommended and eventually taken are the responsibility of the Corps. Congress may say “do something,” but it’s the Corps that decides what, how and where to do it. The ultimate responsibility lies with the Corps. Sylvanus Thayer’s zombie is _totally_ going to kick your ass. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/30 "2011-05-16T14:06:56Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > The ultimate responsibility lies with the Corps. That’s like saying the Army has the ultimate responsibility for the Iraqi invasion. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/31 "2011-05-16T19:44:10Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > … And while the initiation of such actions may reside with political bodies, the actions recommended and eventually taken are the responsibility of the Corps. Congress may say “do something,” but it’s the Corps that decides what, how and where to do it. The ultimate responsibility lies with the Corps. Are you saying that major intervention to save the River was a mistake? Or that the decision of Congress and the public to save the River was correct, but that a better-designed system was possible? Anyway, [a link given in another recent SDMB thread](http://www.americaswetlandresources.com/background_facts/detailedstory/LouisianaRiverControl.html) has nice diagrams (back to 15th century) and photos about the Old River Control Complex. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/32 "2011-05-17T00:03:15Z")
This situation has prompted me to dig out my copy of John M. Barry’s _Rising Tide_ (“The great Mississippi flood of 1927 and how it changed America”). An excellent read, it includes info on the history of the river and how it got that way. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/33 "2011-05-17T00:31:29Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Are you saying that major intervention to save the River was a mistake? Or that the decision of Congress and the public to save the River was correct, but that a better-designed system was possible? Don’t know if a better-designed system is possible, but it appears that the original idea of controlling the river has backfired and some of the solutions have unintended, and very bad, side effects. Or, as Robbie Burns put it, “The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men gang aft agley…” ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/34 "2011-05-17T01:08:22Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > \but it appears that the original idea of controlling the river has backfired \ backfired how? As far as I know, the flood control structures and plans have all worked pretty much as planned. I haven’t heard of any failures. Some levees have failed, but not federally constructed ones. Certainly there is flooding, but that is part of the flood control plan. As others have said, it is not practical to design a system that prevents all flooding. I am not a fan of the Corps and their designs. But they are very very good at what they do. Congress and the public funded these structures. If the public hadn’t made the decision to fund them, they would not have gotten built. I have been involved in grass-roots efforts to get flood control projects funded and built. The only thing the Corps contributes are the plans and the cost estimate. And the cost estimate is always higher than the boosters would like. The Corps does not low-ball projects! The Corps may have influenced public decisions, but their efforts are by no means a deciding factor. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/35 "2011-05-17T03:22:53Z")
> [@rbroome](#): > > backfired how? As far as I know, the flood control structures and plans have all worked pretty much as planned. I haven’t heard of any failures. Some levees have failed, but not federally constructed ones. Before the river was channeled, it found its own outlet. Much of the spring flow was absorbed into the floodplain instead of being sent to the ocean. With more control, the river can no longer do these things. The levees must be made higher and higher since the flow is channeled into an ever-narrowing space, and the flow is faster, causing increasing erosion around structures. It cannot soak gradually into the water table like before. It cannot find the best route to the sea, but must go where the Corps forces it. It must be subject to increasing control because of the increasing control, and there is no end in sight. If you doubt me, please read John McPhee’s excellent New Yorker article about the history of river control. With the river’s height greater than ever before even during non-flood times, most of New Orleans is below the waterline and the ships travel above it as they pass by. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/36 "2011-05-17T04:11:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > John McPhee discussed the subject very well [here](http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1987/02/23/1987_02_23_039_TNY_CARDS_000347146?currentPage=all). Pre-Katrina but still applicable and still very readable. A **great** article. I’m only halfway through, but intend to read it all. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/37 "2011-05-17T04:14:05Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > With the river’s height greater than ever before even during non-flood times, most of New Orleans is below the waterline and the ships travel above it as they pass by. Isn’t the land also subsiding? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/38 "2011-05-17T07:07:19Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Don’t know if a better-designed system is possible, but it appears that the original idea of controlling the river has backfired and some of the solutions have unintended, and very bad, side effects. > > Or, as Robbie Burns put it, “The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men gang aft agley…” The “plan” that failed was to develop major cities whose economy depended on a major River and port. If the “Corps of Engineers” were to “change its mind” now and let the Mississippi follow its “natural” course, the economic cost to Louisiana would dwarf that of the disasters which have occurred. The discussion can lead to interesting questions about Man’s Arrogance, the power of Mother Nature, the fragility of civilization, etc. But viewed in a narrower context – preserving the economy of southern Louisiana (at least so far!) – it seems to me, despite my sympathies for Ludditism, that the Old Riiver Control Complex can be regarded as an engineering triumph. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/39 "2011-05-17T07:17:28Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The “plan” that failed was to develop major cities whose economy depended on a major River and port. This was impossible before the Corps? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978/40 "2011-05-17T09:59:15Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > This was impossible before the Corps? I wrote plan in “quotes.” I thought (incorrectly?) everyone here knew that as New Orleans developed into a major city during the 19th century, the life history of the Mississippi River was not well understood. I notice a tendency here at SDMB to take a straightforward statement, come up with the stupidest possible interpretation, and pretend that was what the poster intended. Is this a game? Does it belong in _The Game Room_ ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-flood-gates/581978.md?page=3)