# Opening schools **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [May 21, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247 "2020-05-21T15:36:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/201 "2020-07-04T21:27:00Z")
> [@RealityCheck71](#): > > The science I’m talking about is the same science that convinces the American Academy of Pediatrics to urge school openings. My regional children’s hospital has also recommended in person school starting back up. I see. So you just worded your earlier post poorly. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/202 "2020-07-04T21:55:14Z")
If you say so. But schools usually start after labor day, ie September. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/203 "2020-07-04T22:06:06Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Fundamentally opening schools requires teachers to believe the situation is safe enough. At the moment, many do not. They are refusing to show up. I honestly don’t fault those making that assessment doing so _at this moment_. While I’ve been communicating on these boards the unexpected circumstance that kids have not been seeming to transmit _this specific germ_ very much ever since Maria Van Kerkhofve, the head of W.H.O.'s division of emerging diseases and zoonosis unit, first noted that children seemed to not be transmitting much in the initial analyses, to many this is whiplash-inducing. It is very very different than how influenza, and a host of other infectious agents, plays out with kids. _Many_, not only teachers, are understandably [anchored](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_(cognitive_bias)) to the pre-existing idea that kids amplify the spread of germs. Expecting those very fearful to change their mindset on a dime is unreasonable. Especially when messaging to date has reinforced their fears. But teachers are very educable. And they care about their students. I hold hope that the assessments of the moment can change as the science becomes even more clear. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/204 "2020-07-04T22:19:27Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > across the world schools have opened. Across the world the same thing has been found: very little transmission from children, especially those 10 and under, to each other and to adults; few kids getting COVID-19 as well. No studies have found kids transmitting frequently to other children or to adults. As has been posted many times in this thread, most of the schools that have opened have had low infection rates in their areas. The exceptions were Israel and Sweden. Both of those places had schools that had to close down due to outbreaks. > [@DSeid](#): > > And you also awfully misrepresent what I have said Huh. Your posting style must be rubbing off on me. > [@DSeid](#): > > The more contacts higher risk adults have with other adults the more at risk they are. A high risk grandparent interacting daily with their own adult children in hand-off who are going out and about in the world every day, and possibly more adults as they do things as a result of that, is at much more risk than a high risk adult who is having many fewer of those contacts. That doesn’t just apply to school. If the parent is working, then that’s probably what the family is doing now. However, with the children not in school, the only person bringing in more risk is the adult parent who can hopefully be responsible for keeping their distance and doing their hygiene. If you’re saying that once school starts, the elderly adult will go off to their island and stop seeing the child for months or until the school year is done, then maybe your scenario might be right. It might also be the reason that low-income people and people of color are less likely to send their children to school. Some of those households are multi-generational since many of them can’t afford separate living spaces. If, as you say, the children have some amount of possible contagion, that’s adding more risk to their lives. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/205 "2020-07-04T22:34:44Z")
> **[Depending on where in the U.S. you live, “back to school” means anytime from...](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/14/back-to-school-dates-u-s/)** > > Earlier starts tend to be more common in the South and Southwest. Later starts are more common on the East Coast and in the upper Midwest and Northwest. Less than a quarter of schools start after Labor Day: the second week of August is more common than after Labor Day. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/206 "2020-07-04T22:42:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But teachers are very educable. And they care about their students. I hold hope that the assessments of the moment can change as the science becomes even more clear. Literally no one will make any attempt to educate them. Districts, near as i can tell, are remaining carefully neutral about whether parents should opt for virtual or in person. I suspect that part of this is just because no one wants the moral responsibility right now. The other issue is that everyone is thinking social distancing will be easier with fewer students. So don’t expectanyone to actively advocate for school, or make an argument that it really is safe. I am also really not sure that I buy that opening high schools is always the best option. There is a lot less evidence about older kids as spreaders . . . Much of what we have now is from daycare, near as I can tell. And YES, kids will get together if they are home, but not in groups of 25 in a room for hours, and they won’t circulate past hundreds of other teens and adults in a day. A kid that has a part time job, goes to school, and has 2 other working adult in the home is risking so much exposure. I will go to work as called, but that makes me very nervous, especially when our positivity rate grows every day and our hospitals get more full. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/207 "2020-07-04T22:46:36Z")
Parents too. After the lockdown campaign, it is going to take a bit of effort to convince parents they aren’t sending their kids into a meat grinder. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/208 "2020-07-04T23:11:04Z")
As pointed before, I already acknowledged that science, problem is that other items are being ignored by the AAP. > **[The American Academy of Pediatrics sparks debate by recommending that kids...](https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/aap-recommends-kids-return-school-coronavirus-debate-214055213.html)** > > Despite the pandemic, the AAP is advising schools to reopen so kids can avoid social isolation. > But Weingarten, president of the [American Federation of Teachers] says she was “disappointed” that the AAP didn’t address teachers and their health in the guidance. “Teachers are getting skeptical that nobody is concerned about their well-being,” she says. > That said, Pringle says things aren’t perfect for teachers right now. She says she’s “absolutely” heard from teachers, especially some who work in lower-income communities, who are worried about the risk to themselves and their students. “We have teachers in school buildings that already were crumbling and had poor air circulation,” she says. “They’re already worried because they have girls’ bathrooms that don’t have soap in them. They’ve been screaming about these things and nobody thought it was important.” Others have noticed the “[assume a spherical cow](https://www.wired.com/2011/02/what-is-up-with-the-spherical-cow/)” position the AAP has on this issue. (Again, I assume that the science is good, only that in their recommendations there is a lot that is being missed) > **[The Problem With the AAP Guidelines on Opening Schools](https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/the-problem-with-the-aap-guidelines-on-opening-schools-a8777443e687)** > > They are being used as a blank check for reopening when they should be seen as a call to fundamentally alter our priorities > ## The AAP guidelines minimize the risks involved in reopening > > The AAP argues that the risks of opening schools are lower because children are less likely to get sick and become less severely ill when they are infected. They also point to evidence suggesting that “children may be less likely to become infected and to spread infection”. Their assumption is that if children are not a significant vector for viral transmission, then the risks of opening schools are minimized. There are several problems with this. > > First, while it seems pretty conclusive that children themselves face minimal risk of serious illness, it is still unclear whether children can be a significant source of transmission. Thus far, it does seem that children are less likely to transmit the virus. However, we are still learning a lot about the nature of transmission and putting millions of kids into close contact in poorly ventilated and crowded indoor spaces for prolonged periods is a high-stakes test of whether this is true. > > But, more importantly, the AAP does not address the biggest risk of transmission in reopening schools: the number of adults it puts into frequent contact both indoors and over large geographic spaces. Every school has multiple adults in it. Large schools in urban areas can have more than 100 adults in them. A single classroom can have up to 4 adults working in close proximity throughout the day. > > In addition to the adults working in the schools, children need to be transported to and from school. In large cities, this often happens on crowded public transportation systems. > Reopening schools exponentially increases the number of interactions that potentially infected adults have with others. > Finally, the AAP’s argument that physical distancing recommendations — including smaller class sizes — should be modified if they would preclude full-time in-person school is dangerous and irresponsible. It essentially gives a blank check to school districts that do not want to spend the money required to open schools safely. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/209 "2020-07-04T23:19:52Z")
Medium is just a blog site basically. If she’s a teacher, her concerns should be answered but she has little expertise on how safe this is. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/210 "2020-07-04T23:21:56Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > > [@DSeid](#): > > > > But teachers are very educable. And they care about their students. I hold hope that the assessments of the moment can change as the science becomes even more clear. > > Literally no one will make any attempt to educate them. Districts, near as i can tell, are remaining carefully neutral about … Oh I am not expecting or even hoping the administrators will be doing the educating, and if they attempted to I would not expect them to be very successful at it. My hope, not quite expectation but hope, is that Fauci (most of all), and the CDC, come out strongly endorsing the AAP’s recommendations. From there you get the advisors to various governors following suit and governors making statements encouraging districts to work towards those standards. Yes, more cautious approaches are indicated with High Schoolers than with grade schoolers. The AAP statement addresses that. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/211 "2020-07-04T23:30:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yes, more cautious approaches are indicated with High Schoolers than with grade schoolers. The AAP statement addresses that. I see a lot of recommendations about what to do “if possible”. What I don’t see is any guidance about what to do if less than half those things are possible. If we can’t cohort, reduce classroom changes, provide 6 or even reliably 3 ft of distance. I am not adverse to going back to work. But the recommendations for secondary schools seem unlikely to be implemented and the risk seems higher regardless. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/212 "2020-07-04T23:38:00Z")
High school is definitely harder but a hybrid system (online/in class) for high school is also much more palatable than for lower grades. Maybe, core classes in person and optionals online? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/213 "2020-07-04T23:43:08Z")
Nope, that is killing the messenger, the point she talks are also seen by the Association of Teachers. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/214 "2020-07-04T23:45:08Z")
I’ve seen all those points already raised here, except maybe the poor ventilation one. I’m not killing the messenger, just saying she’s not a cite to be profusely quoted. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/215 "2020-07-04T23:48:04Z")
Adults in schools are less close to each other than adults in most other workplaces. The AAP does not minimize the risks at all. They advocate for considering how small and hypothetical they are compared to very large harms. Maybe a useful exercise is to use what we know to date to engage in some rank ordering, trying to gauge the level of likely benefits to harms. On one end of the spectrum we have things like crowded sporting events and rock concerts, and bars. Large risks of spread and of superspreader events. Relatively little sacrifice asked of those to not attend. Some economic impact but not dramatic. Analysis is poor risk benefit balance. Sorry sports and rock concert fans, sorry bar goers. Hair salons, nail parlors, and barber shops? Even masked, close contact between adults. Reassuring that there was that case in which being masked prevented spread but still, not a big sacrifice to being asked not get your vanity needs met, not giant impact on others and across the economy. I’m not sure about this risk benefit wise. Eating outside tables spaced 6 feet apart. Adults working in the restaurant are having close contact with each other for sure and I suspect that those at those tables are not always of the same household and they are not masked or socially distanced. Somewhat bigger impact to the economy. Schools? Adults easily kept socially distanced from each other, and masking very easy to do. Reasonable mitigation possible. Keeping closed is imposing a huge cost on the children, increasing inequities, and has huge economic impacts across the society (which cost lives and well being), in return for unclear if they exist possible marginal decreased risks. On the scale _knowing what we now know_ schools never should have been shut down. They certainly should be open, with reasonable risk mitigations in place as appropriate for the grade, by late August. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/216 "2020-07-04T23:49:18Z")
It’s more than a matter of being educated. Teachers don’t believe that epidemiologists really understand what a classroom is like. They make suggestions and recommendations, and teachers know they are impossible to implement. For example: Kids are supposed to wear masks all day. Every teacher I know gives a horse laugh when hearing that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/217 "2020-07-04T23:49:58Z")
And if my grandmother had wheels she’d be a bicycle. The point stands, not seeing an adequate system of testing in place, for starters, tells me that the AAP is just looking at their domain, that is a very good thing, but unrealistic once we notice how it is missing the many mice that will put the bell to the cats. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2020, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/218 "2020-07-04T23:51:04Z")
Again everyone can see that I did not quote her only, not a very convincing move. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/219 "2020-07-05T00:06:53Z")
She was over half your post. And sorry, but I said her concerns should be answered. I didn’t dismiss her, thank you very much. But she doesn’t know the dangers of public transportation for spread of this disease. She doesn’t know how ventilation systems effect the spread of this disease. Am I dismissing her to assume that? Maybe a little- but it was on her to back those assertions up somehow. But you know what? She’s actually got a bunch of interesting ideas … that are no way getting implemented as pandemic emergency measures. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/220 "2020-07-05T00:13:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > On the scale _knowing what we now know_ schools never should have been shut down. …yeah, naaaaaaah. On the scale of knowing what we now know not only should schools have been shut down, _everything_ should have been shut down properly and hard from the get go. That includes schools, airports, borders between states. This micromanaging what should and shouldn’t be open, trying to prioritize “those at risk” from “those that might not be at risk” has resulted in a clusterfuck of epic proportions, where “paralysis by analysis” stops everyone from doing what needs to be done to stop this thing. Lock down hard except for truly essential services for 60 days. (Supermarkets, public transport, petrol stations, hospitals) Ramp up testing and tracing. Slowly phased reopening. Pay people to stay at home. All coordinated (and largely paid for) at the Federal level. What isn’t needed is needless complication. And the plan to selectively open schools is just another complication in a literal ocean of complicated plans. In the middle of a global pandemic where many countries have bought a measure of control over the spread of Covid-19 using simple, basic yet effective strategies you want to do something completely different. Something with only marginal and subjective value, with a high degree of risk, while the US is recording a record number of cases and with the lack of social-distancing in the last few weeks that number can only go up. _We know what works._ Why you would want to experiment **now** just boggles the mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=12)