# Opening schools **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [May 21, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247 "2020-05-21T15:36:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/221 "2020-07-05T00:18:42Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > For example: Kids are supposed to wear masks all day. Every teacher I know gives a horse laugh when hearing that. I think we can keep their masks on, in HS. But i don’t think we can keep them distanced at all. I don’t thing we can stagger passing periods, cohort them, do symptom checks (even at home, as AAP recommends), offer accelerated block, or basically do anything else. We can probably eat lunch in our rooms . . . But then do I send a kid to pick up the lunches, because they are a lower risk to the lunch lady than me? . I’m not even sure, frankly, we will be able to staff the building. I have no faith my administration will let me isolate from other adults, co-workers as well as parents. I think I would feel more comfortable with the AAP’s recommendations if they could see any circumstance where schools should be closed. Should kids who won’t wear masks be sent home? If teachers are out, do you send kids home or combine them (as we do now)? What if the medical system is being overwhelmed? I think “Roadmap to opening schools safely” would have been a better way to put it. This is like " first, open schools. Here are some negotiable things you might want to do." ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/222 "2020-07-05T00:21:12Z")
They didn’t recommend a closure even during an outbreak at a school? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/223 "2020-07-05T00:23:45Z")
Things is that the reason why I quote her was that those are things that I see too. Very inadequate transportation and ventilation systems. -Ed, who was for years an assistant to the principal in one of the schools I work for. Working now there and in other schools now for IT and sometimes I’m a substitute in social studies, history, tech and art from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/224 "2020-07-05T00:45:36Z")
Yes, I’m mainly familiar with elementary school teachers. They tell me that there’s no way to make 7 or 8 year olds follow any kind of strict guidelines as a whole class. Some goofballs will always start messing around. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/225 "2020-07-05T01:46:29Z")
Not that I see. I may be missing something. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/226 "2020-07-05T01:48:56Z")
What worries me is that I think you could make all kids wear them, bit only by literally convincing them they will kill each other if they don’t. The style of presentation that will get the screwballs to listen will give the sensitive nightmares about how they are going to die or kill their mom. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/227 "2020-07-05T03:34:08Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I think we can keep their masks on, in HS. Adults can’t even keep their masks on for 15 minutes in a grocery store, I don’t see high school kids keeping theirs on all day. Maybe while sitting in class with an authority figure enforcing the rules, but any other time? Probably not. [Here is a silly video](https://www.facebook.com/812235183/videos/10163833601085184/) of what one kindergarten teacher thinks will be happening in her class come fall with regards to masks. If you don’t feel like clicking, it can be summed up in one of the jokes “my mask fell in the toilet.” I really hope schools can safely open in the fall. My child was not a joy to teach (once we found our routine it wasn’t too bad). I have several things that concerns me, and perhaps the studies in other countries where schools did open address this, do we only see low transmission with kids because the kids are staying at home much more than adults? My kid has not been to _any_ indoor public space since the middle of March. She could only catch Covid-19 from one of her adult caretakers, and pass it to one of the other adult caretakers, who are also at risk from the original carrier. Also, are those other countries that have successfully opened schools doing so while community spread is mostly controlled? I’m just going to assume that in the US we’re going to have uncontrolled community spread for the rest of the summer, so we’ll be opening schools on that background. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/228 "2020-07-05T12:08:08Z")
> [@RealityCheck71](#): > > They didn’t recommend a closure even during an outbreak at a school? More that criteria of when to close is not the subject of the guidance, which is about opening. They start off with this: > [@](#): > > - School policies must be flexible and nimble in responding to new information, and administrators must be willing to refine approaches when specific policies are not working. > - It is critically important to develop strategies that can be revised and adapted depending on the level of viral transmission in the school and throughout the community and done with close communication with state and/or local public health authorities and recognizing the differences between school districts, including urban, suburban, and rural districts. But the meat of the guidance is about how to open, not how (or specifically when) to close. > [@suranyi](#): > > there’s no way to make 7 or 8 year olds follow any kind of strict guidelines as a whole class. Some goofballs will always start messing around. The AAP guidance also considers face-coverings in that age group potentially more harm than good. They discuss them in each age group section but here is some of the broader discussion: > [@](#): > > When developing policy regarding the use of cloth face coverings by students or school staff, school districts and health advisors should consider whether the use of cloth face coverings is developmentally appropriate and feasible and whether the policy can be instituted safely. If not developmentally feasible, which may be the case for younger students, and cannot be done safely (eg, the face covering makes wearers touch their face more than they otherwise would), schools may choose to not require their use when physical distancing measures can be effectively implemented. School staff and older students (middle or high school) may be able to wear cloth face coverings safely and consistently and should be encouraged to do so. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/229 "2020-07-05T12:08:18Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I think we can keep their masks on, in HS. But i don’t think we can keep them distanced at all. I don’t thing we can stagger passing periods, cohort them, do symptom checks (even at home, as AAP recommends), offer accelerated block, or basically do anything else. We can probably eat lunch in our rooms . . . But then do I send a kid to pick up the lunches, because they are a lower risk to the lunch lady than me? . I’m not even sure, frankly, we will be able to staff the building. I have no faith my administration will let me isolate from other adults, co-workers as well as parents. The guidance is extremely clear on the need to protect the adults in the building, > [@](#): > > Given what is known about transmission dynamics, adults and adult staff within schools should attempt to maintain a distance of 6 feet from other persons as much as possible, particularly around other adult staff. For all of the below settings, physical distancing by and among adults is strongly recommended, and meetings and curriculum planning should take place virtually if possible. In addition, other strategies to increase adult-adult physical distance in time and space should be implemented, such as staggered drop-offs and pickups, and drop-offs and pickups outside when weather allows. Parents should, in general, be discouraged from entering the school building. Physical barriers, such as plexiglass, should be considered in reception areas and employee workspaces where the environment does not accommodate physical distancing, and congregating in shared spaces, such as staff lounge areas, should be discouraged. As to what can be done in terms of staggering passing periods, cohorting, etc. - of course most of the exposure time is in the classroom and achieving social distancing and/or masking there is the biggest gain. You however are a better judge of what is possible at your school than any guidance writers. And of course no one has control about what happens as soon as they are off grounds. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/230 "2020-07-05T12:28:49Z")
My point is more, if a school can’t or won’t do those things . . .if they don’t work with the infrastructure, if they are too expensive, does the school close? As I read it, the guidance is 1) keep the schools open no matter what 2) here is a bunch of stuff we really strongly recommend, but even if you can’t do much of that, and no matter what the local conditions, keep them open. They don’t even have any recommendations for what to do if a student or teacher gets the disease, or if there is a cluster of cases. Now, maybe all that is more the CDC’s area, and beyond the scope of the AAP, but I wish it was more clear if they saw the guidelines as sufficient for schools to be safe enough to justify the risk, or as necessary. We start school in six weeks. I cannot imagine we can get half those recommendations in place by then, not least because it all has to be done via zoom. So I feel like the report needs a "if you can’t do this stuff, then . . . " clarification. I honestly have no idea how to end that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/231 "2020-07-05T13:00:16Z")
What is more possible in 6 weeks is of course different for the sets of recommendations for younger grades than for the oldest ones, and for different individual schools. I suspect many High Schools in particular won’t be ready to go with these recommendations at school start and will be implementing whatever their in-progress approaches are. But once off the ground they may revisit, especially if there have been a few other districts that _have_ implemented the guidelines and demonstrated both safety and acceptance. Meanwhile some of the alternate plans out there, with hybrid models of various stripes, may be reasonable for High School students. Not as good as full time in place but a reasonable balance given the art of the possible. The challenges of implementation though are less for Middle School students and below, and the harms of not implementing them greater. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/232 "2020-07-05T13:15:01Z")
Revisiting is also really complicated, because you have to change schedules, and you can’t get credit for a class if you transfer in after a few weeks. I am pushing hard for accelerated block (four classes a semester instead of 8) so we can cohort. It would be relatively simple to find a set of 25 kids, give them all the same 4 classes, etc. But we can’t swap to that model. We either have it in place the first day of school, or we don’t do it. But the reason we can do it is that we have a relatively limited class list because we are a small, specialty school. For a normal HS to cohort, they’d have to eliminate a lot of electives and shove kids into a much smaller set of classes, which no one wants to do. Hybrid was explored by the district, but ultimately rejected. Not sure why, but I imagine the logistics were just impossible. Now, I am in a district with over 250 schools and 90% low SES, so logistics are significantly more complicated. It’s also complicated because the AAP is the only guidance we’ve had. The CDC, the state education department, etc., have offered nothing and they are scared to make plans at the local level that may later be contradicted by evenual guidance. This pushes us further and further back, making the window for actually making plans more and more narrow. We also don’t know how many teachers are coming back, nor how many students. I think the “spherical horses” description of the AAP recommendations is apt. It makes two incredibly important points . . .closing schools hurts children, badly, and children are relatively low risk, making elementary schools, especially, unlikely to serve as amplifiers . But the advice on how is sorta like a handout on “caring for your newborn” that the hospital gives you: way, way better than nothing, but still frustratingly vague on details that are very important. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/233 "2020-07-05T14:42:26Z")
Spherical cows you mean 🐄 But I agree, because of the uncertainty, increase in cases among the population, and old teachers refusing to come back to work, one poor district I work for in Arizona decided to do the first quarter just as the last one from spring. Remotely and with old fashion text assignments to students with no internet access. Inadequate IMHO, but with no aid readily available (or with many hoops to jump) to get more teachers or IT support and testing from government it is what it is. While complete closing the school is also a possibility because of very likely budget contraction. As I said, the AAP has a good point, but it misses the mice that need to put the bell to the cat. 🐁 🐈 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/234 "2020-07-05T17:45:53Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > … Now, I am in a district with over 250 schools and 90% low SES, so logistics are significantly more complicated. It’s also complicated because the AAP is the only guidance we’ve had. The CDC, the state education department, etc., have offered nothing and they are scared to make plans at the local level that may later be contradicted by evenual guidance. This pushes us further and further back, making the window for actually making plans more and more narrow. … Sorry to talk out of both sides of my mouth some but here I go - The AAP jumping in as it did to fill the guidance vacuum really did catch me off guard, and it is a sign of how deficient our response has otherwise been at all levels. The AAP usually follows the CDC’s lead on these sorts of things. But completely throwing the interests of children under the bus when it has become clear that responses that would have been appropriate for a pandemic influenza are misguided for the current bug could not be left as the default. They took the leadership role on the subject only because no other body is doing that job. The other side is that very specific guidance is going to be an exercise in futility. Your district has different challenges than many other ones, and their facts on the ground are not yours. And the district @GIGObuster works for has its own specifics. Breaking it out by age group cohorts was huge. Stating some general principles to guide decisions also very useful. And that really is as far as they _can_ take it. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/235 "2020-07-06T15:57:07Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Less than a quarter of schools start after Labor Day: the second week of August is more common than after Labor Day. When I was in school (two states, both in the Midwest) the first day of school was always the day after Labour Day. When my Kids were in school (New England), school always started in the last week of August. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/236 "2020-07-06T15:58:33Z")
Connecticut has a plan: > **[Details of school reopening plan during coronavirus pandemic: small groups, 6...](https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-news-back-to-school-plan-20200629-zixae26zyfcctbwvu7zfwyvivu-story.html)** > > Connecticut officials are asking that school prepare a plan to return to classrooms that includes 6 feet between desks, small cohorts of students for as many grades as possible and a host of other safety measures to stem the spread of COVID-19 this... More or less… > **[‘It was 50 pages of fluff’: From wearing masks to no temperature checks some...](https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-news-connecticut-teachers-reopening-plans-anxiety--20200704-u7jsyek575dkzavuvdfhx6pzoy-story.html)** > > “I thought we’d come up with a plan and once we proceeded I realized the Governor’s plan had just passed the buck to schools and our board of educations,” she said. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/237 "2020-07-06T19:47:34Z")
I am fairly confident that opening schools will prove to be a disaster for public health. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/238 "2020-07-06T19:49:20Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > most of the exposure time is in the classroom and achieving social distancing and/or masking there is the biggest gain. Maybe most of the _time_ is in the classroom, but at least everybody’s sitting in one place most of the time, and there’s a certain amount of between-student distance there. In the halls between classes, all that goes away. It’s crowded, it’s disorganized, people going both directions, crossing the flow to get to their lockers, etc. I’d be at least as worried about that as the time in classes. > [@DSeid](#): > > The challenges of implementation though are less for Middle School students and below, and the harms of not implementing them greater. I’m not so sure implementation would be much easier for middle school kids than for HS. You still have a school day with several periods, you still have kids at the same grade level taking different classes, even in the core. (At the Firebug’s school, there is regular and honors English, and regular and honors Math.) > [@MandaJo](#): > > For a normal HS to cohort, they’d have to eliminate a lot of electives and shove kids into a much smaller set of classes, which no one wants to do. If ditching electives is the difference between opening safely versus opening unsafely or not at all, then put me in the ‘screw electives’ camp. ISTM that that would simplify things a great deal, and leave more time for logistics of de-crowding buses, lunch, etc. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/239 "2020-07-06T20:18:50Z")
Sure, but if we are going to do that, we need to decide soon, because it won’t be a simple thing. Tons and tons of things could be done, if we had six months and/or could get adults in one room to work things out. But schools can’t even begin to make plans until they know the district plan, the district plan is waiting on 1) state and federal guidelines, and 2) knowing what parents are planning to do. Parents are waiting on the schools to publish plans and to see what happens with the general state of the pandemic to decide what to do. And the state and federal levels are not saying much, presumably because politics or uncertainty. If I thought it would work, I’d seriously advocate delaying school by 8 weeks and not having a summer next year. But I think they’d just kick the can down the road 8 more weeks. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/240 "2020-07-06T20:29:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’m not so sure implementation would be much easier for middle school kids than for HS. You still have a school day with several periods, you still have kids at the same grade level taking different classes, even in the core It would be easier because the recommendations for that age group is much less restrictive. You shouldn’t worry about 10-12 yr olds being masked or 6 feet apart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=13)