# Opening schools **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [May 21, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247 "2020-05-21T15:36:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/381 "2020-07-13T04:56:09Z")
> But spending is on the decline – down 4% between 2010 to 2014 even as education spending, on average, rose 5% per student across the [35 countries in the OECD](http://www.oecd.org/about/membersandpartners/). > **[The US spends more on education than other countries. Why is it falling behind?](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/07/us-education-spending-finland-south-korea)** > > Spending per student exceeds the OECD average but the likes of Finland and South Korea get better results. What can the US learn from them? One big reason: the funding is actually inadequate for teachers. > In the US, teachers earn on average 68% of what other university-educated workers make Another is that the money is not going to help the families of the students, the aid is really inadequate. And… the latest reports are that local governments are cutting funds and laying off staff and teachers too, so it is not a lie nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/382 "2020-07-13T05:18:56Z")
You’re not putting a lie to the grave at all because it’s not a lie, and as badly as you apparently want to believe all districts are adequately funded and those who claim otherwise are lying, it’s just not true. . The district I taught in for 25 years had a salary freeze for the last ten years I worked there. We couldn’t afford new equipment. We couldn’t afford new educational resources. There was, however, a big, shiny new football field because capital expenditures like new buildings and football fields can get federal funding. That big new football stadium counted as educational funding, and that money could not, by law, go to badly-needed instructional funding. > University of Iowa education professor David Bills offered one caveat. “What matters is not the absolute budget per se, but **the proportion of that budget that is spent on instruction** ,” Bills said. > > Traditionally the United States spends big parts of its educational budget on non-instructional items such as security – more so than some other nations. [Source](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/apr/21/jeb-bush/does-united-states-spend-more-student-most-countri/). [Bodling mine.] Another reason for that misleading statistic: [the tremendous gap between what schools in wealthier areas get in funding vs. what schools in poorer areas get:](https://www.forbes.com/sites/lindadarlinghammond/2019/08/05/americas-school-funding-struggle-how-were-robbing-our-future-by-under-investing-in-our-children/#40bfcecc5eaf) > These growing inequalities are rooted in the way American schools are funded, primarily through local property taxes that produce significant disparities. Although states try to offset inequalities, they rarely succeed in eliminating these funding gaps. [The top-spending states spend about three times](https://edlawcenter.org/assets/files/pdfs/publications/Is_School_Funding_Fair_7th_Editi.pdf) what the lowest-spending states allocate to education and, in many states, [the wealthiest districts spend two to three times](http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/1053) what the poorest districts can spend per pupil. You think most school districts are rolling in money? You think that across the board, school districts are adequately funded? Think again. Maybe then you’ll quit calling the truth a lie. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/383 "2020-07-13T13:35:27Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > There is a name for that cognitive error that I am not recalling, the automatic knee jerk conclusion that a statement is wrong because you generally disagree with the person who is stating it, and for that reason alone. > > It would be a making a serious cognitive error. If my sync’ed to the atomic clock watch and my phone both say 6:00 I am not going believe it less because a clock I know is broken also says 6:00. Now that’s an interesting attitude. If my watch suddenly agrees with a clock that’s always wrong, not a stopped clock that’s right twice a day, but a clock that is intentionally presenting the wrong time, all the time, then I double check my watch, I don’t hand wave away the evidence that contradicts my watch. And then I’d look into how it all happened, and even if I still think my watch is correct I’d want to know how this odd circumstance occurred. And in this case I think it’s pretty obvious when you pull back far enough to take in the entire picture. Trump senses the chaos and division that surrounds this concept of returning kids to school. He sees it dividing the country, giving him opportunities to attack his enemies, and the chance to defund public schools. It is actually clear that he’s right about that. Opening schools right now will be worse than keeping them closed because chaos will ensue, and it’s already started. If the schools are forced open there will be teachers and students who refuse to attend and there’s no way to implement reasonable cautions to prevent a disaster. You aren’t just siding with Donald Trump, you’re right in line with his good friend Betsy DeVos as well. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/384 "2020-07-13T13:48:17Z")
So, you think the AAP is “siding with Trump”? They aren’t taking a stance based on their professional judgment, they just picked a political position? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/385 "2020-07-13T14:00:31Z")
I think this is far too complex an issue to take a stance on any single basis. There is no conclusion when taking into account all the factors. Some statistics that indicate opening schools might not be a problem are not enough to make it work anymore than political clowns looking to cause chaos. The consequences of being wrong are too great to treat this as a hypothetical. We have suffered enough already from such short term thinking. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/386 "2020-07-13T14:05:31Z")
You think the AAP took a stance “on a single basis”? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/387 "2020-07-13T14:10:43Z")
Yes, otherwise they should be disregarded altogether because they have a single area of expertise. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/388 "2020-07-13T14:29:04Z")
Public health and children’s health were probably the basis for their stance. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/389 "2020-07-13T14:31:37Z")
I personally don’t have anything good to add, because I haven’t been in a school in several years. However, this thread on tumblr has a lot of good points, and a couple of good visuals: ![^ OK if this was a teen dystopia novel the reader would roll their eyes at how ridiculous and over the top that was](https://64.media.tumblr.com/460ff26c41a51e9e85ca01336c4dada0/b909f76b677014de-7b/s1280x1920/50e7f7ce2313304ea22322f4405f275e323014ec.jpg) No one yet in this thread has mentioned school shooter drills, which I thought was mentioned in that thread, but now can’t find it. I guess they won’t be doing that now, but what happens if there’s a school shooter? How do you socially distance when there’s only a 5x5 or 5x10 part of a schoolroom that the children can be protected from school shooters? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/390 "2020-07-13T14:37:00Z")
A stance that was shown later that they clarified that the education districts should look at the infection rate to make a decision, the early AAP position (that was really misunderstood by many of the ones in favor opening schools) was a **guideline** , **not** a law. From the latest joint statement: > **[Pediatricians, Educators and Superintendents Urge a Safe Return to School...](https://www.aap.org/en/news-room/news-releases/aap/2020/pediatricians-educators-and-superintendents-urge-a-safe-return-to-school-this-fall/)** > > The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), American Federation of Teachers (AFT), National Education Association (NEA) and AASA, The School Superintendents Association, join together today in the following statement on the safe return of students,... > Local school leaders, public health experts, educators and parents must be at the center of decisions about how and when to reopen schools, taking into account the spread of COVID-19 in their communities and the capacities of school districts to adapt safety protocols to make in-person learning safe and feasible. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/391 "2020-07-13T14:46:32Z")
Right, but there’s no indication what that means. When are local conditions bad enough to outweigh the damage done by cancelling school? Which of those guidelines must you have the capacity to implement, and which are not essential? Without any clarification regarding that, it feels like a weasel clause. ---
**Author:** ![SayTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/392 "2020-07-13T14:56:44Z")
I like to think I’m sensitive to the concerns of all sides of this particularly issue, but the ‘school shooter’ argument is…well, not straight shooting. Here’s the way that’s supposed to go. The two sides sit at the table and try to hash this thing out, and the side that doesn’t want to return says, “What about school shooter drills? I guess that’s out?” And the other side kinda softly sighs and nods and lifts the eyebrows and gently says, “Yeah, I guess that’s out.” And there’s a poignant moment of silence, and then they both move on. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/393 "2020-07-13T15:17:06Z")
Does that follow for fire drills? Because we do kinda need those. We have a real event that requires evacuation about 1 in 3 years. So we both need the practice, and we need to know what evacuation looks like with social distancing. Like, right now, we evacuate if anyone smells gas. Is that still policy? Happens at some school in the district every year. And in any case, we can’t just not have drills. I think it would have to be the city, not the district, that waived them. The point is that schools are so, so complicated and these issues need to be addressed. We aren’t just being difficult when we bring them up. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/394 "2020-07-13T15:17:24Z")
And I agree, the reply was just to point out how the other poster misses still about the spherical cows and the problem of not having the mice that need to put the bell to this cat. IOW, the proponents of opening the schools now are ignoring that the guidelines are fuzzy still and even worse: they are not quite what the proponents claim to be. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/395 "2020-07-13T15:32:57Z")
This educator nicely sums up my take. > ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/396 "2020-07-13T15:50:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And I agree, the reply was just to point out how the other poster misses still about the spherical cows and the problem of not having the mice that need to put the bell to this cat. You mean me? I am quite aware that the AAP is not a governing authority. I am quite aware that their stance/press release is mainly “in person school is very very important”, not a detailed game plan for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/397 "2020-07-13T16:51:21Z")
To me, the worst threat is the kids whose parents are idiots. Many believe this whole thing is a hoax and those are precisely the parents who aren’t even flinching about sending kids back to the petri dish. They want schools starting again because there’s “no risk.” Their kid will do as the parent—refuse to wear a mask, won’t wear it properly, won’t distance, will cough in someone’s face, will touch every surface they can etc. Set all the rules and guidelines you want, but if the parent hasn’t bought in, neither will the child. If you want to apply draconian sanctions for those students who step out of line, good luck with that. Parents are already openly disobeying rules and recommendations from elected officials. Misbehavior could lead to a trip to the principal’s office 🙄. And then there are those times when kids aren’t as closely supervised, e.g. trips to the restroom, in line for lunch, on the bus… Meanwhile: > [@](#): > > Despite the recent surge in cases, Florida will still be reopening schools in August. Education Secretary Betsy DeVos said there’s nothing in the data that suggests that kids being in school is in any way dangerous. > **[Florida records more new COVID-19 cases than all of Europe combined](https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/florida-records-more-new-covid-19-cases-than-all-of-europe-combined/)** > > There is growing concern about rising COVID-19 cases in Florida as it prepares to reopen schools next month. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/398 "2020-07-13T18:16:23Z")
Well, thanks for saying what does not counter what I said. Again what the AAP says is not ignored, only that that is not what can be operational until government gets serious with funding, materials, testing and manpower; opening now is really reckless. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/399 "2020-07-13T18:38:52Z")
You made a point of telling me that their pronouncement wasn’t a law. Using boldface. So I guess I don’t understand what you’re trying to tell me I dont understand. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/400 "2020-07-13T18:43:28Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Right, but there’s no indication what that means. When are local conditions bad enough to outweigh the damage done by cancelling school? Which of those guidelines must you have the capacity to implement, and which are not essential? > > Without any clarification regarding that, it feels like a weasel clause. Yes, that is what is missing are lots of details on exactly what is necessary. There is [this](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/downloads/community/School-Admin-K12-readiness-and-planning-tool.pdf) from the CDC. It includes useful advice like, “If using fans, make sure they do not blow from one person onto another.” Skimming over it, I don’t see anything too terrible, but it is still full of lots of “consult with local health officials” type language. The problem is that nobody has hard and fast rules that are proven effective. Anything is going to be full of estimates and assumptions about the way the virus, children, and adults behave. Not to mention different opinions about what amount of risk is acceptable, which often degenerates into arguments about what amount of risk is actually present. As data comes in, those things will change. Maybe by fall 2021 we’ll have a good sense of how low community spread needs to be for schools to open, what measures in schools are effective at limiting the spread of virus, and what measures don’t make much difference or are too difficult to follow to depend on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=21)