# Opening schools **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [May 21, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247 "2020-05-21T15:36:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/401 "2020-07-13T18:46:55Z")
I keep seeing “limit class sizes”, but never a number. Limit to 30? 20? 12? If a school can’t get classes below 30, is that reason to go on line? This is just an example of the sort of guideline that seems sensible, but doesn’t help. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/402 "2020-07-13T18:53:57Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Does that follow for fire drills? Something that makes people go outside, even if they are in groups, is going to to be far safer (with regards to virus transmission) than something that makes people bunch together in a closet. I think holding classes outside when possible should be considered a mitigation policy. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/403 "2020-07-13T18:54:04Z")
That’s probably because they aren’t school administers. Istm, basically they are just saying that the risk of covid infection/spread from schools is strongly outweighed by the harms of staying home. So do it. If there really are impossible hurdles, ok I guess, but they are saying “what about the children?” shouldn’t be an objection. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/404 "2020-07-13T18:54:05Z")
As a grandparent, I technically don’t have a horse in this race. I do have an opinion, but “science” says that kids don’t get COVID as easily as adults do, kids recover quicker, and the kid version is rarely fatal. I don’t know where the kids came from for these study results. A classroom? But kids have been out of school for months… I’ve seen some guidelines for the schools to prepare for the start of classes. Aside from masks (yeah, riiiiight…), “social distancing” is the next caveat. “Desks should be 3 to 6 feet apart.” Well, we’ll need rubber classrooms for that one. THERE IS NO ROOM FOR THAT! There are no empty classrooms for overflow. One expert says the airflow in the classrooms should be increased. Somebody get out a saw, because the only way to do that is open more windows! Two years ago (I think), Arizona teachers reached a breaking point. They were the lowest paid in the nation, and they were expected to teach with practically nothing. Many were paying thousands out of their own pockets for school supplies. So they all walked out of the classrooms, converged in Phoenix, and marched to the State Capitol. Two years later, I bet they have seen very little of what was promised them. Nationwide, teachers stood in solidarity with them. They, too, understood the lack of funding. Who in the Hell is going to pay for the demands of social distancing? How are they going to get increased airflow in the classrooms? The Feds promised the money? Trump has already threatened to DEFUND education if schools don’t open on HIS timeline! He’s not going to open his checkbook for social distancing in classrooms! Because he thinks COVID will magically just go away. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/405 "2020-07-13T18:57:23Z")
❓ Like if we forget what was said before: > [@RealityCheck71](#): > > Well, they aren’t going to open schools in July but not opening the schools in September is ignoring the science. As mentioned, the science (and this is about the ignored teachers, staff and other workers involved in educations) is telling us that in places like Arizona opening schools in September (Actually August, as it was shown that on that you were wrong on that too) is not looking to match the science. It also does not match what many school districts and states are deciding to do. Even the inept governor decided to delay the opening of schools. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/406 "2020-07-13T18:59:42Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > I think holding classes outside when possible should be considered a mitigation policy. I’ve seen that suggestion, and it might work where I live, if there is room. (And what about blackboards and visual aids?) But what about when it rains? And what about the North in October where it is a bit chilly to hold classes outside. The elementary school across the street from me does not have enough room to social distance, even if half the classes were outside - which would require some to be in the field, good luck when it rains. Sometimes I think the back to schoolers think we’re still living in one room school house times. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/407 "2020-07-13T19:03:18Z")
When you have a fire drill, you suddenly have every person in the building smashed together in the halls at the same time. Then they go and mill around together, as close as a concert or festival. Then you repeat the hall-smashing part. There’s no way fore drills (or actual evacuations) won’t create more risk. How much risk? I have no idea. Nor do I know if it’s enough risk to make it worth, say, holding the kiss in class an extra fifteen minutes to see if you can locate the source of the gas smell (which may just be a bunsen burner left on) instead of evacuating everyone and waiting for the fire department to give the all clear. I have no idea what’s appropriate there, but there needs to be a policy before it occurs. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/408 "2020-07-13T19:03:38Z")
Ok, amend that to “not trying to open the schools”. Ok? ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/409 "2020-07-13T19:03:40Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@echoreply](#): > > > > I think holding classes outside when possible should be considered a mitigation policy. > > I’ve seen that suggestion, and it might work where I live, if there is room. (And what about blackboards and visual aids?) But what about when it rains? And what about the North in October where it is a bit chilly to hold classes outside. > > The elementary school across the street from me does not have enough room to social distance, even if half the classes were outside - which would require some to be in the field, good luck when it rains. > Sometimes I think the back to schoolers think we’re still living in one room school house times. Which is why I said “when possible.” Yeah, lots of issues. Too hot in much of the country until mid-October. Too cold in other places much of the time. A bump in skin cancer rates in 30 years? Don’t look for a perfect solution that fits all conditions, but fill your tool box with lots of countermeasures. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/410 "2020-07-13T19:08:27Z")
But isn’t the risk of 35 16 year olds crammed in an classroom with no windows, changing classes and remixing 7 times a day, in a city with a positivity rate of 20% a really different risk level that 10 6 year olds in a self-contained room in a community with very low infection rates? How can they possibly say “it’s worth the risk” across that whole spectrum? And if they know so little about the actual risk, because they don’t know the reality of what classrooms are like, how can they decode it’s “worth it”? ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/411 "2020-07-13T19:11:29Z")
They do differentiate between 10 year olds and 16 yr olds. Why can’t you just not worry about cramming the ten year olds together even if remote learning is the only feasible plan for high school? ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/412 "2020-07-13T19:18:07Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > When you have a fire drill, you suddenly have every person in the building smashed together in the halls at the same time. Then they go and mill around together, as close as a concert or festival. Then you repeat the hall-smashing part. There’s no way fore drills (or actual evacuations) won’t create more risk. How much risk? I have no idea. Nor do I know if it’s enough risk to make it worth, say, holding the kiss in class an extra fifteen minutes to see if you can locate the source of the gas smell (which may just be a bunsen burner left on) instead of evacuating everyone and waiting for the fire department to give the all clear. I have no idea what’s appropriate there, but there needs to be a policy before it occurs. Yep, that is why tools to estimate the risk levels are necessary, but when I posted one created by experts it was attacked as having too many assumptions and obviously too inaccurate to be useful, despite the click count showing hardly anybody had looked at it. So, what is riskier, kids close together in the halls for two minutes, kids in a building that might be filling with gas, or an actual fire evacuation going badly because of lack of practice? I don’t know, but estimates can be made and appropriate action taken. No choice will be risk-free. Active shooter drills have been mentioned a few times, but what about the much more common (than real shooters) severe weather situations? Do they still duck and cover for tornadoes? I’m sure everybody at least is moving to an inside room. I still think that kids milling around together outside is low risk compared to milling around together inside. Try to get them to stand far apart and not talk too much (yeah, right). ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/413 "2020-07-13T19:22:22Z")
Nowhere does the APA guidance suggest any specific circumstances where moving school on line is appropriate. It says first, keep kids in school. Second, do this stuff to mitigate risk if you can. There are some weasel words, but the overall impression is that they think there is no level of risk that outweighs the positive benefits of school, for all ages and circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/414 "2020-07-13T19:24:05Z")
Well, it’s only a guideline. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/415 "2020-07-13T19:24:49Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > I still think that kids milling around together outside is low risk compared to milling around together inside. Try to get them to stand far apart and not talk too much (yeah, right). The issue is that outside they will be milling about close to hundreds of kids they wpuld normally have no contact with. So its being inside with 25 people or close together outside with hundreds. And you can’t spread them out. 1000 people spread out is just more space than schools have, especially if you are keeping them out of the road. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/416 "2020-07-13T19:32:15Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Nowhere does the APA guidance suggest any specific circumstances where moving school on line is appropriate. It says first, keep kids in school. Second, do this stuff to mitigate risk if you can. There are some weasel words, but the overall impression is that they think there is no level of risk that outweighs the positive benefits of school, for all ages and circumstances. They say “we should leave it to health experts to tell us when the time is best to open up school buildings” while emphasizing that opening schools is extremely important. On further reading, my takeaway is they don’t want schools closed just because that is the easy option. That does miss the point that opening schools with inadequate safety measures is the easy option. That is how I’m reading it, anyway. It does acknowledge that opening schools properly will be expensive and hard. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/417 "2020-07-13T19:40:50Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The issue is that outside they will be milling about close to hundreds of kids they wpuld normally have no contact with. So its being inside with 25 people or close together outside with hundreds. And you can’t spread them out. 1000 people spread out is just more space than schools have, especially if you are keeping them out of the road. This is revealing my bias. I’ve only attended and interacted with suburban schools that have far more space outside than inside. In all of those places spreading the kids out would be easy, well, from an “available space” perspective. I can see that would be impossible at urban schools. The risk calculations will definitely be different depending on the available space. For example, my elementary school has about 5 acres of outdoor space for 350 kids+adults. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/418 "2020-07-13T20:30:36Z")
> **[U.S. students are at 'higher risk' from the coronavirus than kids in other...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/13/us-students-get-sicker-from-the-coronavirus-than-kids-in-other-countries-dr-scott-gottlieb-says.html)** > > "We have more co-morbid illness among young people in this country — more asthma, more obesity, more diabetes — so there is going to be higher risk with our school age population," former FDA chief Dr. Scott Gottlieb said. One of the reasons that I like the models, although I don’t agree with all the specifics, is that the assumptions have to be spelled out. When people compare opening US schools with schools that have successfully opened, they don’t usually mention that the schools that have successfully opened so far are in countries with a low rate of infection and with populations that are healthier than the US. > [@](#): > > President Donald Trump has been pressuring U.S. schools to reopen this fall, tweeting last week that schools in “Germany, Denmark, Norway and Sweden, along with many other countries” were “open with no problems.” But Gottlieb said Monday it’s difficult to compare the U.S. to most of those countries because they were able to bring the level of daily infection down to a manageable degree before reopening schools. > . . . > “The only country that had schools open against a backdrop of a fair degree of spread was Sweden, and that’s what everyone extrapolates from,” he said on “[Squawk Box](https://www.cnbc.com/squawk-box-us/).” “We didn’t study that systematically. We don’t know how many kids were really infected.” > . . . > It remains unclear exactly how the virus affects children and whether young people, many of whom never develop symptoms or develop only mild symptoms, play a primary role in spreading the virus. Because of limited testing among young people, scientists have struggled to draw firm conclusions about how easily young people might pass the virus on to one another and to older, more vulnerable people. > . . . > Another concern that ought to be considered when deciding whether and how to reopen U.S. schools, Gottlieb said, is that young people in the U.S. are generally sicker than young people in Sweden, for example. Regardless of age, other underlying conditions more prevalent in American kids puts them at a greater risk of a severe Covid-19 infection. > > “We have more co-morbid illness among young people in this country — more asthma, more obesity, more diabetes — so there is going to be higher risk with our school age population,” Gottlieb said. Those so-called co-morbidities have resulted in more severe illnesses and even death in Covid-19 patients across all age groups, scientists have found. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/419 "2020-07-13T20:35:42Z")
Has there been any consideration made toward possibly streamlining the curriculum for the various grade levels? Seems to me like everything isn’t equally important in the final analysis- for example, had I never had to read “A Doll’s House” by Ibsen or anything by D.H. Lawrence, I’d be none the worse for wear. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/420 "2020-07-13T21:30:35Z")
One thing that occurred to me is that (for obvious reasons) everyone seems to be thinking short term here. What if there never is a vaccine, or it takes multiple years to develop? What if the prospect is of no in-person schools for two years? Three? Which side will blink first if it drags out? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=22)