# Opening schools **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [May 21, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247 "2020-05-21T15:36:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/942 "2020-08-15T20:38:56Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > But doesn’t it seem like kids with symptoms will be going to school on a regular basis? I can’t imagine that all working parents will take time off to take their symptomatic kids to get tested and then quarantine them while the results come back to see if their sniffles are just sniffles or coronavirus. Lots of working parents will send their kids to school and hope for the best. I get the feeling there will be a lot of shunning. You think some kids felt left out before? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/943 "2020-08-15T20:42:05Z")
Aye; I caught myself and realized I had taken the Gish Gallop bait. But that’s all your post was: a flood of ridiculous questions, meant to overwhelm and thus stifle and dilute any response. And you avoided answering my question: how long will we allow “I didn’t know” to be an excuse? The kid’s parents had the guidelines. Why is “we didn’t know” an acceptable excuse? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/944 "2020-08-15T20:46:22Z")
I agree. It’s not at all clear how we handle allergies or IBS. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/945 "2020-08-15T21:27:35Z")
So, I went back to the story quoted above and it says > School personnel investigated the matter and learned that the student’s parents were mistaken about the student’s end of quarantine date. I went on the [school’s website](https://www.mooreschools.com/whs) and if you can find their covid guidelines you’re better than I. There’s this page [**Should I keep my child at home?**](https://www.mooreschools.com/Page/279) {page 279 btw) no mention of covid. I went to the [OK State Dept of Education](https://sde.ok.gov/), and they essentially pass the buck to the school districts. but they [reference](https://sde.ok.gov/sites/default/files/Return%20to%20Learn%20Oklahoma.pdf) the CDC and [The President’s Plan for Opening America Up Again](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/downloads/php/CDC-Activities-Initiatives-for-COVID-19-Response.pdf) which doesn’t talk about schools but does recommend that sick **employees** follow the [CDC guidelines.](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/if-you-are-sick/end-home-isolation.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fprevent-getting-sick%2Fwhen-its-safe.html). clear as mud. I don’t have any info about the specific case, but if it was just that the student should quarantine for ‘x’ number of days then I could see how it could be confusing. Maybe the family was playing fast and loose. The kid was supposed to go back on Thu and they sent him back on Wed that sort of thing. But, it could be that the actual end day was vague. My whole point, originally, was that the news headline made it seem like the kid(or parents) knew he was infectious and went to school anyway, when the reality of the case was quite different. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/946 "2020-08-15T21:34:34Z")
I don’t think @mikecurtis deserves the sanctimonious attitude, @Snowboarder_Bo. No one cares that you’re tired of “excuses”. He wasn’t making any. He was offering explanations. I have been following the coronavirus stuff very closely from day one and even I don’t know all the “rules”. A couple of weeks ago I was in a very shitty dilemma. Should I let my mother–who had been battling corona just a couple of weeks prior–come up and take care of me after my surgery? Or should I tell her to stay home to minimize my risk of getting sick? When I shared my worries with her, she insisted that she was corona-free. But the test results hadn’t come back yet. And she was still coughing and complaining of fatigue. But people cough all the time. And she’s a 73-year-old who just battled a major illness. Of course she’s going to be fatigued. Neither of those things means she’s contagious. Still, I didn’t know what to do. Word got back to me that my mother was devastated that I was hedging on letting her come up. So I caved and told her to come. I did so knowing there was a non-zero risk that I might get infected. She spent four days with me, and that was three weeks ago. It is possible that I got infected, but I never got sick. Guess what? _We still don’t know whether she was corona-positive while she was with me._ Cuz the fucking test results haven’t come yet. So I can easily imagine a scenario where parents (and teachers) make mistakes_even when they follow the CDC guidelines_. We don’t have rapid testing. In many places the testing is so horrible it might as well not even exist. So parents will have to make the decision that their kids are no longer COVID symptomatic against a backdrop of confounding variables. Like anxiety-related symptoms and allergies. This is definitely going to lead to some kids going to school when they are still contagious. And this is especially going to be true in the next few weeks when cold, flu, and allergy season kick in. You _will_ have kids who have corona on top of allergies on top of everything else, and we are going to be expecting parents to know what to do IN THE ABSENCE OF TEST RESULTS! So it is BULLSHIT to be sanctimonious right now. Save the sanctimony for when the system isn’t so shitty. Right now I don’t blame parents for not knowing what the fuck to do. They’ve got people hounding them to go to work and they’ve got people hounding to keep their kids at home. And no one is helping them with either. Hell yes they will be making excuses because what the fuck else are they going to do. Working parents don’t have unlimited leave. They can’t keep their kids out of school every time they have a cough or complain of stomach pains. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/947 "2020-08-15T21:46:18Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [golf clap] > > A Gish Gallop of questions; well done. **Moderator Note** Let’s keep this kind of snark out of this forum. To everyone else, let’s drop the personal remarks. Several other remarks deserve notes, but I’m not going to single them out. Let’s keep the discussion civil. Colibri QZ Moderator ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/948 "2020-08-15T21:55:32Z")
To expand on this: every bit of advice assumes testing is available, affordable, and responsive. The positivity rate in Texas is 20%. That means there’s no where near enough testing, and it’s not like people don’t want to be tested. They can’t. And anecdotally, turn-around time is terrible. Weeks, not days, in many cases. Certainly not the 48 hours you need for it to be meaningful. It’s beyond infuriating. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/949 "2020-08-15T21:57:34Z")
From the link that @mikecurtis posted: > **[Coronavirus Resource Center - Harvard Health](https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/coronavirus-resource-center)** > > COVID-19 (coronavirus disease 2019) is a respiratory illness caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus. It is very contagious, and spreads quickly. > > Most people with COVID-19 have mild respiratory symptoms that feel much like a cold or flu. But it can be... > ### **For how long after I am infected will I continue to be contagious? At what point in my illness will I be most contagious?** > > People are thought to be most contagious early in the course of their illness, when they are beginning to experience symptoms, especially if they are coughing and sneezing. But people with no symptoms can also spread the coronavirus to other people if they stand too close to them. In fact, people who are infected may be more likely to spread the illness if they are asymptomatic, or in the days before they develop symptoms, because they are less likely to be isolating or adopting behaviors designed to prevent spread. > > Most people with coronavirus who have symptoms will no longer be contagious by 10 days after symptoms resolve. People who test positive for the virus but never develop symptoms over the following 10 days after testing are probably no longer contagious, but again there are documented exceptions. So some experts are still recommending 14 days of isolation. If I am a working parent reading this last paragraph, I’m gonna be like WTF, bro! Because it’s telling me that the 14-day quarantine period is just the bare minimum. If Junior shows symptoms on day 10 of the quarantine period and has symptoms for a week, then we’re essentially talking about more than four weeks of quarantine. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/950 "2020-08-15T22:17:17Z")
My district has done the right thing and gone totally on-line for the school year. They’ve done their best to make sure every student has on-line access, and passed out who knows how many Chromebooks. They’ve configured attendance and such to work through Google Classroom and Google Meet, and revised the schedule so that we teach staggered groups of students. Monday and Thursday I have periods 1, 2 & 3. Tuesday and Friday periods 4,5 & 6. Wednesday is all periods but for half the time. “Office Hours” for additional questions or help at the end of every class day. Science teachers and those who use specialized equipment have been going into their empty classrooms and teaching from there, while the rest of us teach from home. We ended last school year that way without too much disruption. We’ll see how a whole year of it goes. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/951 "2020-08-15T22:29:34Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t think @mikecurtis deserves the sanctimonious attitude, @Snowboarder_Bo. No one cares that you’re tired of “excuses”. He wasn’t making any. He was offering explanations. FTR, I wasn’t offended by @Snowboarder_Bo and I gave as good as I got (as alluded to by @Colibri) I feel his frustration. And yours. Even for those of us who have been following the science, the advice from experts is not lock step. I’ve worked in schools. No matter how thorough and obvious you think you’re making guidelines, there’s always gonna be some parents who dont understand, didn’t get the memo, or feel like they know better. And I think that one of the most important takeaways of this little excursion of ours is that schools need more guidance; then they need to make their guidelines for the parents and students explicit, and have a contingency in place for when everything goes south. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2020, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/952 "2020-08-15T22:49:34Z")
They also have to make them reasonable. Right now, the trend seems to be overkill: you can’t say that school is safe, as long as anyone with a little drainage or a cough or a sour stomach stays home. Treating a sore throat the same as a cough or a fever is ridiculous. By making the line “any symptom, any sign”, you encourage people to rationalize and ignore. Also, acting like self-screening is meaningful lets the powers that be ignore the testing crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/953 "2020-08-16T00:34:13Z")
When I kept after my district to allow more teacher input, they were like, Great, we’re putting you on the virtual academy committee! I was irritated, because we need input into what’s happening now, not into what’ll happen eventually when students are allowed to come back but some students will for a variety of reasons choose not to come back right away. But I wanted to be a team player, so I joined the committee. Except now they’re talking about setting up a virtual academy through our district _permanently_, and want me to help plan that. We’re a small district (~4,300 students), and setting up an academy is going to take significant resources away from our in-person students. As far as I can tell, it’s being done mainly to “recapture” (their words) the students who have left the district for charter schools, private schools, and homeschools–a population that’s overwhelmingly wealthy and white. So we’re setting up a school within our district that’ll be segregated from the get-go. I’m looking for a way to resign from this committee: instead of helping with managing pandemic education, it’s gonna further educational inequality. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/954 "2020-08-16T18:38:30Z")
First off some ammunition for those who want some for their belief that kids in school are an existential threat to the health of all. The newest statements from the [CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/pediatric-hcp.html) are bigger belief in their transmission risk. > [@](#): > > children can spread the virus effectively in households and camp settings.8,9 8 and 9 are the South Korea study and the Georgia overnight camp flare respectively. Of course the CDC deserves some deference, yet still it must be pointed out the the South Korea findings have [been revisited](https://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2020/08/06/archdischild-2020-319910). (SAR = secondary attack rate.) > [@](#): > > … Our study summarises the transmission dynamics within the households from the first 107 paediatric COVID-19 index cases in Korea, and estimates a low transmission potential from children to household members … > > … one pair of paediatric COVID-19 index case-secondary case were identified, giving an SAR of 0.5% (95% CI 0.0% to 2.6%). … > > … Our study summarises the transmission dynamics within the households from the first 107 paediatric COVID-19 index cases in Korea, and estimates a low transmission potential from children to household members … > > … there are no evidence to support that children can become the main drivers of the COVID-19 pandemic, although it should be interpreted with caution as the investigation was carried out in the context of lockdown.[4](https://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2020/08/06/archdischild-2020-319910#ref-4) ,[5](https://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2020/08/06/archdischild-2020-319910#ref-5) In this context, our data may provide important baseline information on the role of children in COVID-19 household transmission dynamics in the setting of social distancing, suggesting that children are mainly infected inside household clusters, with limited transmission to household members. … > > …This study has several limitations. First, we used epidemiological information until 6 April 2020, which is a snapshot of the disease dynamics in the setting of school closures, which may have influenced the number of children identified as index cases, but does not reduce the number of household contacts. In fact, school closures may result in more time at home, which would likely increase the SAR among household contacts due to increased exposure to other people within the home. … The [NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/health/older-children-and-the-coronavirus-a-new-wrinkle-in-the-debate.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage§ion=Health) spin on it: > [@](#): > > A study by researchers in South Korea last month suggested that children between the ages of 10 and 19 [spread the coronavirus more frequently than adults](https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-1315_article) — a widely reported finding that influenced the debate about the risks of reopening schools. > > But additional data from the research team now calls that conclusion into question; it’s not clear who was infecting whom. The incident underscores the need to consider the preponderance of evidence, rather than any single study, when making decisions about children’s health or education, scientists said. > > Some of the household members who appeared in the initial report to have been infected by older children in fact [were exposed to the virus at the same time as the children](https://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2020/08/06/archdischild-2020-319910). All of them may have been infected by contacts they shared. … > > … Dr. Dean and other experts cautioned against interpreting the scientific evidence so far as saying that children under age 10 simply cannot spread the coronavirus. > > But “it’s not true to say that they do not transmit,” said Bill Hanage, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. “You hear people say this, and it’s wrong.” … > > … Schools can fuel the influenza virus’s spread to a disproportionate degree, compared with restaurants, bars or places of worship. Children may drive those outbreaks, so closing schools during flu outbreaks makes sense, Dr. Hanage said. > > But with the coronavirus, Dr. Hanage said, “closing schools is not expected to provide more bang for the buck than closing other parts of society.” Instead of reopening bars and restaurants along with schools, he said, schools should be prioritized, while bars and restaurants should be closed in order to reduce community transmission and make school reopenings possible. Thread participants interpret according to your own desires. @Manda\_JO - I’ve read guidelines that discuss major and minor signs and symptoms with cough/difficulty breathing being major (which means that many of us are going to much more aggressive with asthma controller medications inclusive of doubling up) but other signs, inclusive of fever alone, as minor, and low risk unless more than one are present. The CDC guidance is useless in that regard, noting that nearly half of kids with SARS-CoV-2 infections may be asymptomatic, but as for out of school is as follows: > [@](#): > > - If the child has symptoms of COVID-19 but has not had close contact or a potential exposure (which includes travel to or living in an area with [substantial transmission](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/community-mitigation.html)), he or she should be evaluated for possible other disease processes and should be allowed to return to school according to existing school policies if they are determined to likely **not** have COVID-19. Examples of non-COVID return to school policies include resolution of fever without antipyretics for 24 hours for viral illnesses or after initiation of antibiotics for bacterial illnesses. > - If the child has symptoms of COVID-19 and lives in or has traveled to an area with [substantial transmission](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/community-mitigation.html), he or she should be tested for SARS-CoV-2 infection, if possible. If the test result is negative, the child should be allowed to return to school once their symptoms of illness have improved consistent with existing school policy. If testing cannot be obtained, the child should be considered a presumed case of COVID-19 and should isolate according to CDC’s recommendations for [discontinuation of home isolation](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/if-you-are-sick/end-home-isolation.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fprevent-getting-sick%2Fwhen-its-safe.html). > - If the child has had a known exposure or close contact to someone with SARS-CoV-2, regardless of the child’s symptom status, he or she should be tested for SARS-CoV-2 but must remain in quarantine for the 14-day incubation period even if results are negative, in accordance with CDC’s [Quarantine If You Might Be Sick](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/if-you-are-sick/quarantine.html) FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/955 "2020-08-16T19:06:19Z")
Thank you. Is there anywhere that puts any numbers on what counts as substantial community transmission? Is that what Havard Medical calls red? Yellow? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/956 "2020-08-16T19:18:44Z")
Following the link leads to a list of four levels which I’m _guessing_ map onto the Harvard GHI four levels of green, yellow, orange, and red. But they have “substantial uncontrolled” and “substantial controlled” (would be red and orange?) … not sure if they mean only the one or both. I think we have to presume they mean both. Not “making excuses” but dang they make it very difficult to not get confused. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/957 "2020-08-16T19:50:32Z")
I followed the link on my phone and didn’t see the chart. I’m sure it’s there, but again, confusing. I can’t help but feel that the refusal to put numbers on any of this, even broad ranges, is more politics than science. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/958 "2020-08-16T19:57:43Z")
Here. Not sure if internal politics at CDC or just that they’ve been kneecapped. ### Table 1. Level of mitigation needed by level of community transmission and community characteristics Level of Community Transmission Community characteristics and description Level of mitigation **Substantial, uncontrolled transmission** Large scale, uncontrolled community transmission, including communal settings (e.g., schools, workplaces) Shelter in place **Substantial, controlled transmission** Large scale, controlled community transmission, including communal settings (e.g., schools, workplaces) Significant mitigation **Minimal to moderate community transmission** Sustained transmission with high likelihood or confirmed exposure within communal settings and potential for rapid increase in cases Moderate mitigation **No to minimal community transmission** Evidence of isolated cases or limited community transmission, case investigations underway; no evidence of exposure in large communal setting Low mitigation ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/959 "2020-08-16T19:59:50Z")
Okay. I saw that. What I was looking for is some sort of quantitative data. If I am a school administrator in a small school district in an exurb, how am I supposed to know what level I am at? Am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/960 "2020-08-16T20:03:24Z")
No. They stink. I am presuming, perhaps mistakenly, that it maps to the Harvard GHI four levels, that do have numbers attached, with appropriate caveats on interpretations based on 10% positivity of more and directionality and slope. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/961 "2020-08-16T20:19:12Z")
That’s what I thought. And without an explicit connection, I think the CDC has basically said that “substantial, uncontrolled community transmission” is whatever someone decides it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=49)