# Opening schools **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [May 21, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247 "2020-05-21T15:36:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/121 "2020-06-02T08:34:33Z")
Question triggered by recent posts: we in America talk a lot about the obstacles to remote education, including socio-economic issues and just plain attention span on the part of kids. Is it significantly different/better internationally? ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/122 "2020-06-02T08:40:11Z")
No, the same concerns exist. Although the problem might be bigger in the US, because of the smaller social safety net. The initial reports from the primary schools here in the Netherlands, seem to be positive…in the sense that the large majority worked from home and has not been “falling back” Verstuurd vanaf mijn moto g(6) met Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/123 "2020-06-03T10:42:02Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Question triggered by recent posts: we in America talk a lot about the obstacles to remote education, including socio-economic issues and just plain attention span on the part of kids. Is it significantly different/better internationally? Nope. Japanese parents are complaining about all the problems with remote education. Some of my friends were going crazy because I’d the difficulties getting kids to pay attention and do homework. Our school had training on remote education, just in case it would be required, and the administration didn’t even attempt to attempt live sessions for elementary students. If we need to go that route, we’ll record the seasons and let students play it back. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/124 "2020-06-25T01:26:35Z")
Updating. [Some review of the evidence](http://earlylearningnation.com/2020/06/opinion-child-cares-look-safe-its-time-to-act-like-it/) supporting the very low risks associated with opening child care and elementary schools at least. > [@](#): > > the picture is coming more and more into focus: young children are not significant transmitters of COVID-19, and child cares (and elementary schools, for that matter) are rather safe. > > The latest evidence comes from the Nordic nations. Denmark, now with five weeks of data under its belt, [reports no increase in COVID-19 cases](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-denmark-reopening/reopening-schools-in-denmark-did-not-worsen-outbreak-data-shows-idUSKBN2341N7) as a result of reopening those settings for young children. Finland, two weeks into where a spike would have become visible,[echoed these findings](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8365207/Finland-seen-no-spike-coronavirus-cases-reopening-schools.html). Norway’s Prime Minister Enra Solberg even [commented in an interview](https://www.thelocal.no/20200528/norway-pm-was-it-necessary-to-close-schools-maybe-not) last week, “’Was it necessary to close schools? Maybe not. But at the same time, I think it was the right thing to do at the time.” … > > … there is strongly suggestive evidence that children rarely get COVID-19, and, when they do, rarely transmit it to others. > > As the World Health Organization’s chief scientist, Dr Soumya Swaminathan, [said recently](https://www.yahoo.com/news/risk-coronavirus-spreading-schools-extremely-194143983.html): “Children are less capable of spreading it even if they get the infection, and certainly are at very low risk of getting ill from the disease,” adding that, “there have not been many cases described of children transmitting it to others, particularly within school settings.” (The strange inflammatory syndrome that has been making headlines, while scary-sounding, [only impacts](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/05/covid-19-kids/611728/) a truly tiny percentage of children). > > Confirming Swaminathan’s remark, an Australian study, one of the first to focus specifically on transmission within school settings, “looked at 18 infected teachers and students in 15 schools and found that despite them coming into contact with 863 people at the schools, only two had been infected.” > > The good news only continues from there. Twenty-two European Union member states have now re-opened child cares and schools in some capacity, [and none have had COVID cases spike](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/18/french-minister-tells-of-risks-of-missing-school-as-more-pupils-return-covid-19) as a result. In fact, _no nation in the entire world_ reports child cares or elementary schools as significant sources of transmission. … > > … University of North Carolina epidemiologist Daniel T. Halperin [explained further](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/05/29/case-reopening-schools-this-fall/) in a _Washington Post_ op-ed that even when children do contract the virus: “Many children with covid-19 are asymptomatic; in the absence of coughing and sneezing, they emit fewer infectious droplets. Remarkably, contact tracing studies in China, Iceland, Britain and the Netherlands failed to locate a single case of child-to-adult infection out of thousands of transmission events analyzed.” … ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/125 "2020-06-25T01:27:04Z")
Additional in [this NPR bit](https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882316641/what-parents-can-learn-from-child-care-centers-that-stayed-open-during-lockdowns). > [@](#): > > The Y says that during the lockdowns it cared for up to 40,000 children between the ages of 1 and 14 at 1,100 separate sites, often in partnership with local and state governments. And in New York City, the pandemic’s national epicenter in March and April, the city’s Department of Education reports that it cared for more than 10,000 children at 170 sites. > > Working in early days, and on very short notice, these two organizations followed safety guidance that closely resembles what’s now been [officially put out](https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/14/856483424/cdc-issues-decision-tools-to-guide-reopening-of-schools-businesses-transit) by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The Y says a few staff members and parents at sites around the country did test positive, but there are no records of having more than one case at a site. This, among a population of essential workers. > > In a [separate, unscientific survey](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L45r63t8hpYfGLpT6gWKjYMscu8Wut6jtlxO-1FAW9c/edit#gid=204576280) of child care centers, Brown University economist Emily Oster found that, as of Tuesday afternoon, among 916 centers serving more than 20,000 children, just over 1% of staff and 0.16% of children were confirmed infected with the coronavirus. … There are two related reasons for this, Sharfstein explains: One is that children [seem to be less likely to get infected](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/20/880983822/coronavirus-mystery-are-kids-less-likely-to-catch-it-than-adults-are), and the second is that when they _are_ infected they are much more likely to be mildly symptomatic or asymptomatic. If they’re not coughing or sneezing, it’s harder for them to spread the virus to others. _The New Yorker_[reported](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/06/08/how-iceland-beat-the-coronavirus) that Iceland, which did extensive contact tracing, found only two examples of child-to-parent transmission. … There remain very important open questions and the exact level of low risk needs to be better understood. I’ve been a bit of a broken record in this forum beating the drum for the vital importance of getting this data pinned down for a long time now. But the facts are not quite clear that kids, especially elementary grades and younger, very rarely get significantly ill with COVID-19 and rarely transmit it when they do. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/126 "2020-06-25T11:18:10Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > [Some review of the evidence](http://earlylearningnation.com/2020/06/opinion-child-cares-look-safe-its-time-to-act-like-it/) supporting the very low risks associated with opening child care and elementary schools at least. For context, this piece is an opinion piece and it’s in an early learning publication. They clearly have a bias. This stands out as some evidence of their bias. > [@](#): > > The stakes, too, are high. COVID-19 restrictions are pushing many child care programs [over the edge](http://earlylearningnation.com/2020/05/more-bad-news-for-child-care-the-importance-of-not-looking-away/) into insolvency > **[Child Cares Look Safe — It’s Time To Act Like It](https://www.the74million.org/zero2eight/opinion-child-cares-look-safe-its-time-to-act-like-it/)** > > COVID-19 is a bizarre disease that defies easy answers. It impacts the lungs — except when it doesn’t. It brutalizes the elderly and those with underlying medical conditions — except when it kills healthy 30-somethings. The mercurial nature of the... > [@DSeid](#): > > Additional in [this NPR bit](https://www.npr.org/2020/06/24/882316641/what-parents-can-learn-from-child-care-centers-that-stayed-open-during-lockdowns). Also in that NPR bit: > [@](#): > > They did temperature checks and symptom screenings on each child coming in each day, with staff members wearing masks, gloves and gowns where available. Children with symptoms were urged to stay home. > . . . > Of course, running things this way is expensive. Even after emergency state aid, her YMCA locations ran at a deficit, Corral says. Someone will have to pay for the added costs. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/127 "2020-06-25T11:18:53Z")
As a counterpoint, this was written in early May 2020 so it’s possible some things have changed although I don’t see them. > **[Will schools be open in September? We asked several experts to weigh in](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/04/will-schools-be-open-in-september-experts-weigh-in.html)** > > Many unanswered questions about Covid-19 testing, psychology, economic tensions, social distancing and work-from-home curriculum make opening up schools in September a hazy venture. > [@](#): > > Although kids appear to have [minimal risk of dying or getting seriously ill](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fprepare%2Fchildren-faq.html#COVID-19-and-Children) from Covid-19, they can spread the disease like anyone else, said Ashish Jha, professor of health policy at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. > . . . > The United Federation of Teachers union, which represents more than 140,000 teachers and other school employees in New York City, has started an [online petition addressed to the federal government](https://www.change.org/p/federal-government-school-buildings-must-be-safe-before-they-reopen?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=18cb8bc0-6560-11ea-8147-6ba0a365fcb3&use_react=false) demanding certain requirements are met before schools can reopen. > . . . > “I don’t think there’s any chance that people are going to feel comfortable sending their kids to school until the overall number of people getting infected is drastically lower than it is now,” Khullar said. “Getting there will take many more weeks if not months of social distancing and more aggressive testing.” > . . . > If schools shut down again, parents may be forced to return to work anyway. > “Seventy-eight percent of workers live paycheck to paycheck,” Reich said. “There’s no way people can do this for long on their own. They aren’t set up for it, frankly.” > > That may set up a situation where parents call in retired grandparents, aunts and uncles to watch kids while they go back to work. Most Americans “can’t afford child care of any quality during the school year,” Reich said. That means more exposure for older people, who have the highest risk of serious illness from the virus. There are several factors to consider in opening the schools. The safety of the children is an important one. But the safety of the teachers and staff, the comfort of the parents and the safety of the students’ elder relatives is also factored into the mix. If schools open too early when the numbers don’t warrant it, or they don’t have all the systems in place, it might require another shutdown. In September when some parents are back at work, that might require elder relatives to care for the children, putting more of the elderly at risk. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/128 "2020-06-25T12:14:28Z")
Yes what has changed since early May is the accumulating stronger evidence that children DON’T transmit so effectively, especially true for elementary school children and below who may also get COVID less frequently as well. Agreed with your cites on many of the downsides of having schools closed in the Fall. And agree important to determine how much of the in school actions are necessary (at some cost but also saving many more costs) and what ends up being just theater (not worth the cost). ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/129 "2020-06-25T12:32:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yes what has changed since early May is the accumulating stronger evidence that children DON’T transmit so effectively, especially true for elementary school children and below who may also get COVID less frequently as well. I haven’t been keeping up with this topic, but I haven’t seen much evidence that children don’t transmit so effectively. Last I remember, there were models that showed that because of their increased circle of contacts, children do have the ability to transmit to many people. Your argument, last I read, was that there wasn’t any “real world” evidence for the models. But “real world” evidence can only happen on a case by case basis as the schools open back up so there’s no evidence to prove it either way. The places where some schools have opened up and are being used as exemplars are mostly places where the infection rate is already low. That’s not the case with the US at this point.. > [@DSeid](#): > > Agreed with your cites on many of the downsides of having schools closed in the Fall. That would be assuming that the schools were opened before that, leading to that situation of a shutdown in the Fall. If the schools didn’t open at all and weren’t planned to open, the situation might be different. The parents might plan differently. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/130 "2020-06-25T12:36:06Z")
On a micro level, I’m really torn about sending my own 8 year old to school this fall. I mostly send him for the social aspect. If what we really wanted was to max out his educational potential, we’d home school. But will a COVID school offer any social benefits? Masks and faceshields, plexiglass dividers down the center of the room, sack lunches at desks, temp checks, constant worry about transmission. The district will offer an on-line option, and I wonder if that wouldn’t be better for another year. My husband is his primary caretaker, and we’ve delayed his going back to work a year because everything is so uncertain. Also, the logistics will be bad. I bet early drop off will disappear, which means I can’t drop him off at school early enough to get to MY school in time to do temp checks and distribute face shields to my students. I don’t know what we will do. We could manage school at home, but the social stuff is huge. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/131 "2020-06-25T13:03:19Z")
I think it would be a horrible shame if my 5 yr old grand daughter were not able to attend kindergarten this fall. At least in some limited fashion. I acknowledge opening schools would likely result in some amount of increased risk for some at risk populations - possibly including my soon-to-be 60 yr old self. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/132 "2020-06-25T13:23:44Z")
Wait, am I understanding this right? We can’t open schools because if we did, we might have to close them again, and them being closed would be terrible, so we have to leave them closed? I think there might be some flaws in that argument. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/133 "2020-06-25T14:52:19Z")
There have been places with low infection rates where schools have successfully opened and not had to close for the most part. There have been places like Israel where schools have had to close after re-opening. Schools closing after re-opening pose different problems than places waiting until the infection rate is low enough to hopefully remain open. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/134 "2020-06-25T15:37:21Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > I haven’t been keeping up with this topic, but I haven’t seen much evidence that children don’t transmit so effectively. There’s “not keeping up” and there is not bothering to read what has been put in front of you. There is of course no question that in a society that is having cases among the general pubic staff of schools will get disease, from outside of school activities and other staff that they are in close contact with if nothing else. So far though, Israel inclusive, there is no sign that kids have been spreading it much to teachers, to each other, or to parents and grandparents. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/135 "2020-06-25T15:43:08Z")
But it won’t be the Kindergarten you are imagining, regardless: it will be masks, and no touching, and six feet apart, plexiglass dividers and daily temp checks. It may just be what it is, but I think we have to understand that this is going to be stressful and frustrating for the littles ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/136 "2020-06-25T15:44:33Z")
The way we did it in the spring: 48 hours warning, no planning, no expectations for kids or teachers, was the worst of all possible worlds. We shouldn’t do that again. So even if we start school, we need to be ready to cancel it quickly. We have to maintain that readiness and have an evolving plan. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/137 "2020-06-25T15:53:41Z")
Not sure that such will be the case. It has NOT been how preschools have done it very successfully and KG is the transition from that preschool set up to a more traditional sitting at desks one. Temperature checks yes. Wearing masks? Likely if just for the appearance and the messaging it sends. Plexiglass shield at office desks sure but not in the classroom. It may be that for the age group none of those are actually adding very much at all. Even in Israel where few precautions of the sort are in place at all there have been no examples of spread in KGs or from KGs. Very few even in Middle Schools and staff seeming to be the main drivers of flares even in High Schools. But until it is more established some actions of caution are prudent as they open up. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/138 "2020-06-25T15:57:23Z")
I’m sitting here looking at my district’s current plan. It’s absolutely plexiglass dividers in the classroom so that all students are either 6 ft apart or have plexiglass between them. It’s masks on the bus, temp checks at every door, face shields all day. Lunch 6 ft apart. It doesn’t matter if we need it, and I don’t disagree that masks and handwashing would be enough. But that’s what it’s going to be, I think. So is that going to benefit my son socially enough to be worth going to? And you see my frustration about sports. We are going to do all that in the classroom, just in case, but football will go on. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/139 "2020-06-25T16:01:42Z")
Yeah - we’ll see. But I think SOMETHING with whatever limitations, will confer great benefits outweighing the risks of delayed development/socialization. I was talking to the dental hygienist yesterday (yes, I went to the dentist), and she said something along the lines of, if you have a little kid wear a mask, that’s the best way to encourage them to touch their faces more! Damned if you do… What you describe abut plexiglass/etc impresses me as pretty blatant bureaucratic overkill. And yeah - fuck sports (at least for the time being.) I should point out that the 2 youngest families I’m the closest to - my dtr and a nephew - are causing me the greatest confusion re: COVID precautions. Both families have 2 kids under the age of 6. Both families were among the strictest re: the initial shutdown - but now as we have progressed to subsequent “stages”, both families have been about the most willing of folk in my immediate circle to cast off restrictions, engage in social interactions, etc. They aren’t going to raves or anything, but I see FB posts of them with their arms around unmasked friends, going to public pools, hosting gatherings of 20+… Just really confuses me, as I thought there was insufficient reason for them to be quite as restrictive as they were then (tho I respected their choices), yet now, they are pushing the boundaries of what I personally am comfortable with. Also, I’m becoming what I consider fatalistic. I guess there is a different situation if an extended family has an 80 yr old grandparent w/ COPD living w/ them. For them, the probably shouldn’t want a kid going to kindergarten. But I’m kinda taking an approach that I’ll try to be as healthy as I can, I’ll personally take the precautions I feel appropriate, and if I happen to get sick and die, well - that’s my bad luck. Let the kids and young people go to school - and socialize within reason and with precautions. If kids and young people tend to get the disease, well, make it possible for older and at risk people to shelter from them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/140 "2020-06-25T16:07:16Z")
Oh, I absolutely agree that the way it was done in the spring was terrible. Especially when the initial messaging was “schools don’t need to make plans, because it’ll only be three weeks”, and then transitioned to “We can make it indefinite, because schools are doing so much”. Now, nearly all schools are making contingency plans, including for how to manage it if they do need to close suddenly again. Which is prudent. I don’t know what the plans are for sports around here. I think most schools are saying “we’ll wait and see, but probably not”. Which I agree is the right move, but then, I’ve thought for years that school sports were a net negative anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=8)