# Opening schools **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [May 21, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247 "2020-05-21T15:36:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2020, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/161 "2020-06-27T04:13:48Z")
So, this is pretty important: [The American Academy of Pediatrics has put forth detailed guidelines](https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/). > **the AAP strongly advocates that all policy considerations for the coming school year should start with a goal of having students physically present in school**. > … > SARS-CoV-2 appears to behave differently in children and adolescents than other common respiratory viruses, such as influenza, on which much of the current guidance regarding school closures is based. Although children and adolescents play a major role in amplifying influenza outbreaks, to date, this does not appear to be the case with SARS-CoV-2. Although many questions remain, the preponderance of evidence indicates that children and adolescents are less likely to be symptomatic and less likely to have severe disease resulting from SARS-CoV-2 infection. In addition, children may be less likely to become infected and to spread infection. Policies to mitigate the spread of COVID-19 within schools must be balanced with the known harms to children, adolescents, families, and the community by keeping children at home. > … > Evidence suggests that spacing as close as 3 feet may approach the benefits of 6 feet of space, particularly if students are wearing face coverings and are asymptomatic. Schools should weigh the benefits of strict adherence to a 6-feet spacing rule between students with the potential downside if remote learning is the only alternative. > … > In Pre-K, the relative impact of physical distancing among children is likely small based on current evidence and certainly difficult to implement. Therefore, Pre-K should focus on more effective risk mitigation strategies for this population. > … > Elementary Schools > > Higher-priority strategies: > > Children should wear face coverings when harms (eg, increasing hand-mouth/nose contact) do not outweigh benefits (potential COVID-19 risk reduction). > Desks should be placed 3 to 6 feet apart when feasible (if this reduces the amount of time children are present in school, harm may outweigh potential benefits). > Cohort classes to minimize crossover among children and adults within the school. > Utilize outdoor spaces when possible. > … > There is likely a greater impact of physical distancing on risk reduction of COVID in secondary schools than early childhood or elementary education. There are also different barriers to successful implementation of many of these measures in older age groups, as the structure of school is usually based on students changing classrooms. Based on this set of guidelines, I’m leaning more heavily toward thinking that reopening with mitigation measures is the best approach. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2020, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/162 "2020-06-27T11:17:38Z")
> **[1/3 of parents in 3 states may not send children to school because of COVID-19](https://phys.org/news/2020-06-parents-states-children-school-covid-.html)** > > Kindergartners in face masks. Closed playground structures. Random COVID-19 testing. > [@](#): > > And as lawmakers and educators reimagine the K-12 model for fall, a new survey assessed parents’ plans for in-person school and support for 15 potential measures to reduce the risk of COVID-19 in schools in Illinois, Michigan, and Ohio. > . . . > The report, published by the Susan B. Meister Child Health Evaluation and Research Center (CHEAR) at the University of Michigan, included 1,193 parents of school-aged children in the three states who were surveyed from June 12-22. > . . . > Parents’ plans on sending their children to school were similar between each state but varied by demographic factors. Respondents who were Black, Hispanic, or Asian were less likely to report that they will send all of their children to school compared with respondents who were white/non-Hispanic. > > Parents from low-income households were the least likely to report that they will send all of their children to school, with 40 % reporting that they are unsure of their plans or are not planning on sending at least one of their children. > . . . > The survey revealed strong support for a number of measures to reduce COVID-19 exposure risk at school. Three-quarters of parents supported daily temperature screens of students and requiring testing of children if a classmate tests positive for COVID-19. > . . . > “In our survey, parents expressed a lot of uncertainty regarding their plans for school attendance,” he says. “Many are waiting to see how schools address safety and how the pandemic evolves. It’s very likely that [parents](https://phys.org/tags/parents/)’ views and plans will change as new information becomes available.” Based on this survey, the opening of schools is likely to impact low-income people and people of color more than other respondents in the survey. Now that the US is seeing record cases of coronavirus, it remains to be seen how people’s attitudes will change if the case numbers don’t decrease by the Fall. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/163 "2020-06-27T13:03:13Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > Based on this survey, the opening of schools is likely to impact low-income people and people of color more than other respondents in the survey. Maybe I need more coffee, but how are you getting that conclusion? If low-income and POC are less likely to send their kids back to a reopened school, wouldn’t they be _less_ affected by whether the school reopens? ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2020, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/164 "2020-06-27T13:12:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > > > Based on this survey, the opening of schools is likely to impact low-income people and people of color more than other respondents in the survey. > > Maybe I need more coffee, but how are you getting that conclusion? If low-income and POC are less likely to send their kids back to a reopened school, wouldn’t they be _less_ affected by whether the school reopens?. from the article > [@](#): > > “The disparity by household income raises the possibility of potential educational disruption among less advantaged students,” Chua says. “Efforts should especially be made to understand and address barriers to school attendance for these students, and to ensure high-quality education for students who do not attend school in-person.” It assumes that the in-person educational experience is helpful to the student keeping up with their peers. I doubt that low-income people will be hiring tutors for their children. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2020, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/165 "2020-06-27T13:22:01Z")
Right, but they aren’t going to send their kids regardless, if it doesn’t feel safe. There may be all sorts of reasons for this . . . Elderly relatives living in the household, the understanding that COVID disproportionately affects African Americans, lack of faith in their school system to protect kids, etc. And frankly, a lot of school districts aren’t going to do anything to mitigate those fears because what they really want if for half the kids to opt in to the on line option. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2020, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/166 "2020-06-27T16:33:56Z")
From a [reddit comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/hgh24w/covid19_in_primary_schools_no_significant/), several cases of children getting infected from school settings. Texas daycares: [42 caregivers, 25 children with confirmed Covid-19 cases across 60 licensed childcare operations in Texas](https://www.kvue.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/child-care-facilities-covid19-confirmed-cases/269-a119f5dc-9dc1-4a92-9c77-b90b845d8201) [Texas child care centers see sharp increase in coronavirus cases after months of relative calm](https://www.dallasnews.com/news/public-health/2020/06/19/texas-childcare-centers-see-sharp-increase-in-coronavirus-cases-after-months-of-relative-calm/) [New COVID-19 Cases Impact Younger People, Daycares](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/new-covid-19-cases-impact-younger-people-daycares/2391059/) Montreal school: [Almost an entire class of students caught coronavirus at a Trois-Rivières school](https://montrealgazette.com/news/coronavirus-infects-nine-of-11-students-in-trois-rivieres-classroom) > [@](#): > > Almost an entire class of students at a Trois-Rivières school contracted COVID-19 despite physical distancing and other prevention measures. > > The outbreak illustrates the difficulty of preventing the coronavirus from spreading through a classroom of young children. More than 44 students and 34 staff members tested positive for COVID-19 between May 11, when elementary schools reopened outside the Montreal area, and May 31, according to the ministry of education. South Korea private cram school: [COVID-19 infections of teachers, students fuel concerns over school reopenings](http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20200514000921) > [@](#): > > A 25-year-old private cram school instructor residing in Incheon tested positive for COVID-19 after a recent visit to Itaewon on May 2-3. He is believed to have infected 14 people directly and indirectly, including nine students, as of Thursday, according to Incheon officials. As has been pointed out, these incidents are pretty small considering the population of students and daycare children. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/167 "2020-06-27T16:45:20Z")
I can’t imagine social distancing with young kids. How do you keep them six feet apart? And they’re constantly putting everything in their mouths. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/168 "2020-06-27T19:42:40Z")
**LHOD** ’s link to the AAP statement (which I had not yet seen!) is indeed very important. Of note they don’t see physical distancing as effective in young kids either, and express strongly the position that the in younger children the harms of trying to do are in exchange for very little possible gain. Going into the elementary grades they encourage schools to space desks at least 3 feet when possible but, they state: > [@](#): > > … reducing classmate interactions/play in elementary school-aged children may not provide enough COVID-19 risk reduction to justify potential harms. … This a very strong work of advocacy by the AAP. Catches me off guard it does! BTW I get **H&R** ’s take on the reported poll. Going to school again is a huge benefit and at this point in time, according to that poll, low income and minority families are saying they would decline that benefit more often than more economically advantaged and white families say they would, so relatively the they would fall behind even more than the current closings have disproportionately caused them to, while the white and economically advantaged kids would start to regain their lost ground. Hence inequity would increase. One take would be to intentionally disadvantage _all_, or perhaps disproportionately disadvantage the white and economically advantaged children more, in order to not increase the gap. The other is to provide the information (that few yet know and some decline to believe) that there is in fact very little risk to school attendance and emphasis on the importance for their kids to have the chance to begin to make up the lost ground rather than to be further pushed down. That said, as stated in what was quoted, improving the quality of distance learning alternatives for those children who need them must also be a goal. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/169 "2020-06-27T19:54:21Z")
Looked through our school district’s website and found nothing about anti-covid plans for the fall. Doesn’t really bother me, as my kids are in their 20s, but they ought to have at least tentative plans noted by now. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/170 "2020-06-30T16:57:58Z")
As a parent of a middle-school boy, I know he needs to be back among his friends. And intellectually I know that the risks are probably low - extremely low in terms of any harm to him, and pretty low too in terms of his transmitting the virus to my wife or myself. Still scares the bejeebers out of me. Even if the coronavirus doesn’t kill you, it can mess you up in nasty ways for the rest of your life. Probably everything would be fine, but the downside of being wrong is so enormous. If they go back to school in the fall - and I think they have to go back at least part time - I’ll be biting my nails. In the words of Vampire Weekend, _I don’t wanna live like this_ _but I don’t wanna die_ ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/171 "2020-07-02T03:53:51Z")
> **[Why a Pediatric Group Is Pushing to Reopen Schools This Fall (Published 2020)](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/us/coronavirus-schools-reopening-guidelines-aap.html?searchResultPosition=1)** > > Guidelines from the American Academy of Pediatrics encourage “having students physically present in school.” Dr. Sean O’Leary, an author of that advice, explains why. A nice interview with one of the authors of the AAP statement. Oh interesting point made tonight by an ID physician leading a COVID task force in a phone meeting I was on. Strongly feeling that keeping kids in class each day, cohorted, with teachers moving, is much better than a hybrid model in which kids stay out of school half the time, likely not staying home but getting gawd knows what other exposures, that they then bring in to the classroom on alternate days. Hadn’t thought of it that way. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/172 "2020-07-02T04:44:59Z")
I’ve floated the idea of cohorts, and accelerated block (which would involve 4 classes a semester, instead of 8), on my campus, but there’s this terrible catch 22 where we can’t start planning anything until we know what the district’s plans are, the district can’t plan anything until they know how many kids will actually come back, and no one can decide if they want to send their kids back until they see the plans. Cohorting kids is a huge logistical nightmare, unless we literally just toss out all choices and say we are putting you on the classes that worked for cohorting, not the ones you chose. And even that would take days to plan. We could absolutely do it, but I don’t know if we can do it, via Zoom, in a week. But everyone is frozen, in this horrible gridlock. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/173 "2020-07-02T19:15:02Z")
My wife is a teacher, and she’s refusing to go back to the classroom until she thinks it’s safe. Which won’t be for a while. The article mentions how teachers are scared to go back. It says districts will make efforts to ensure teachers’ safety. I don’t know how other teachers feel, but my wife doesn’t trust her district at all. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/174 "2020-07-02T19:34:55Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > BTW I get **H&R** ’s take on the reported poll. Going to school again is a huge benefit and at this point in time, according to that poll, low income and minority families are saying they would decline that benefit more often than more economically advantaged and white families say they would That’s not my take. That’s your take on my point. My take is that people who are doing well under the status quo are eager to get back to how things were. People who were not doing as well aren’t as easily convinced, particularly when there’s a risk of death in the mix. To me, this is sort of like how when businesses that were doing well wanted to open back up, they didn’t realize they would need to get the buy in of customers, employees and government officials. In the case of schools, unless local and state governments will be requiring attendance, in order to reopen, schools will need the buy-in from teachers, staff, parents, students and government officials. If the infection rate in the locality is low, that buy-in might be easier to get. But if the infection rate is high, the buy-in will be harder to get. Like in many other aspects of the economy, Covid-19 has been highlighting more of the inequities of our current systems. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/175 "2020-07-02T19:44:57Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > My take is that people who are doing well under the status quo are eager to get back to how things were. People who were not doing as well aren’t as easily convinced, particularly when there’s a risk of death in the mix That makes no sense. You’re saying the people happy with the current situation want change, the people who are getting screwed are happier sitting tight. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/176 "2020-07-02T20:08:02Z")
> [@RealityCheck71](#): > > > [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > > > My take is that people who are doing well under the status quo are eager to get back to how things were. People who were not doing as well aren’t as easily convinced, particularly when there’s a risk of death in the mix > > That makes no sense. You’re saying the people happy with the current situation want change, the people who are getting screwed are happier sitting tight… That’s an interesting reading of my post. I’ll try to make it more explicit. The people who were doing well under the school system before Covid-19 are eager to get back to that system. The people who were not doing as well under that system will take more to convince. Those people are generally low-income people and people of color, as was highlighted in the poll. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/177 "2020-07-02T20:30:03Z")
> **[Coronavirus infections rising fastest among kids younger than 10, dimming...](https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2020/07/coronavirus-infections-rising-fastest-among-kids-younger-than-10-dimming-prospects-for-oregons-school-reopening-plans.html)** > > Cases among young kids increased fivefold in June. > [@](#): > > Coronavirus cases among Oregon children younger than 10 grew fivefold during the month of June, representing the fastest growth rate of new or presumed infections across any age range. > . . . > The Oregon Health Authority on Tuesday reported [319 confirmed or presumed coronavirus infections](https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/DISEASESCONDITIONS/DISEASESAZ/Emerging%20Respitory%20Infections/Oregon-COVID-19-Update-06-30-2020-FINAL.pdf) among children younger than 10. The number as of [May 31 stood at just 58](https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/DISEASESCONDITIONS/DISEASESAZ/Emerging%20Respitory%20Infections/Oregon-COVID-19-Update-05-31-2020-FINAL.pdf). > . . . > The young age group has now nearly caught up to the infection totals among Oregonians ages 80 and over, the group that has been most likely to die from COVID-19. > . . . > Sutton said the rate of infections in Oregon “certainly endangers the prospect of reopening schools in the fall” and urged residents to maintain social distancing, wash hands and comply with Gov. Kate Brown’s order requiring masks for people age 12 and older in indoor public spaces beginning Wednesday The high rate of infection of children under 10 is endangering Oregon’s schools from reopening. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/178 "2020-07-02T20:41:03Z")
Yeah, that is the thing that the Pediatrics people are missing, and as cited in the other thread, they concentrate on the well-being of the kids by concentrating on how hard students can make others sick; yes, there are some bad results when kids do not go to school like regarding their educational development; but unfortunately, as other cites showed, when opening schools students increase their contacts and exposure, meaning that the advantage of being less capable of transmission or getting sick is not as big as some assume. > **[New Studies Add to Evidence that Children May Transmit the Coronavirus...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/health/coronavirus-children-transmission-school.html)** > > Experts said the new data suggest that cases could soar in many U.S. communities if schools reopen soon. And that takes us to another issue I have with the Pediatric association, teachers, staffers and other workers that will be in contact with students will have their risk increased, that was found in Israel when they had to close schools again after they had accepted the advice from the ones demanding that schools should be open now only to find that the contagion increased among students and staff. ---
**Author:** ![RealityCheck71](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitycheck71/32/3493_2.png) [@RealityCheck71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityCheck71)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/179 "2020-07-02T21:15:27Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yeah, that is the thing that the Pediatrics people are missing, and as cited in the other thread, they concentrate on the well-being of the kids by concentrating on how hard students can make others sick; Lol, yeah. Silly doctors worried about the health and education of kids. Whereas us internet experts realize what is really important: Chasing boogeyman dangers until we have nothing to fear. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247/180 "2020-07-02T21:25:34Z")
Lol back at you. I think you missed that other experts (many are doctors too), and real life incidents like in Israel are telling us that the Pediatric experts may be correct, but in an incomplete way. As other experts report, they are missing other factors, namely the people that have to deal with the kids, and when they are affected and schools close again any reasons the pediatrics doctors point as valid become valid of course, **with the difference that there will be fewer teachers available in the future…** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opening-schools/854247.md?page=10)