# Openly Atheist Characters on TV **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416 "2004-12-17T21:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/81 "2004-12-20T03:48:56Z")
First off, I think Joan’s dad is a lapsed Catholic. Right now, he is bitter toward God. I don’t think you can be bitter toward God if you don’t believe in God. In ST:WOK, while they are discussing the implications of the Genesis project, Bones says, “According to myth, the Earth was created in six days. Now look out! Genesis can do it for you in six minutes.” It was the “according to myth” part that made me believe that Star Trek humans have developed beyond the belief in a higher power. That said, the Bajorans are a deeply spiritual people, and Kira is shown praying several times. She also believes Sisko is the Emissary. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/82 "2004-12-20T07:03:48Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > In ST:WOK, while they are discussing the implications of the Genesis project, Bones says, “According to myth, the Earth was created in six days. Now look out! Genesis can do it for you in six minutes.” > > It was the “according to myth” part that made me believe that Star Trek humans have developed beyond the belief in a higher power. Well, lots of Christians don’t believe in six-day creationism, and would describe a literal reading of Genesis as “a myth”, but still believe in God. ---
**Author:** ![threeorange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@threeorange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threeorange)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/83 "2004-12-20T11:35:27Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > First off, I think Joan’s dad is a lapsed Catholic. Right now, he is bitter toward God. I don’t think you can be bitter toward God if you don’t believe in God. In the most recent episode, when he went to talk to the ex-nun, he told her at the beginning of the conversation “I don’t believe in God”. It seems to me that he may have initially been angry at a God he believed in, but his thinking seems to have evolved into a lack of belief; his bitterness now seems to be about the (in his view) negative effect that religious belief has on people. ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/84 "2004-12-20T12:44:49Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I seem to recall that the father in the Waltons was either agnostic or an atheist, which caused friction between him and the religious mother. Actually, John Walton _believed_ in God, but not in organized religion. This was more evident in the source material (the Henry Fonda movie _Spencer’s Mountain_ and the books by Earl Hamner) than in the TV show – Dad Spencer was a more fiery type than Dad Walton and was vocally anti-_religion_ although he claimed to believe in God. John Walton in the show was more the I-don’t-need-to-sit-in-a-pew-to-pray type than the all-organized-religion-is-bunk type. This did cause friction with the more-conventionally religious mothers in both versions, certainly. But neither the movie nor TV version of Earl Hamner’s father was agnostic or athiest. About Hawkeye Pierce – I haven’t been able to confirm this because I don’t own the book and I haven’t read it in years, but I think the book Hawkeye (and consequently, the movie Hawkeye) _was_ an atheist. However, I may be confusing the book (and movie) Hawkeye with the book (and movie) Trapper John. You see, in the book (and movie!) Hawkeye was a husband and father, and Trapper was single, childless, and pretty wild. They swapped this on the TV show for some reason. Anyway, after a few years on the TV show, Hawkeye lost most resemblance to the book & movie character and became a mouthpiece (IMO) for Alan Alda. While I think the book & movie characters might have tried to help a chaplain they liked to regain his faith out of friendship – similar to the way the agnostic Mike Stivic helped Edith Bunker in _All In The Family_ – the touchy-feely crap about Father Mulcahey ‘helping’ a patient more than a surgeon could sounds exactly like the kind of touchy-feely crap Hawkeye came out with after the character started channeling Alan Alda instead of Richard Hooker. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/85 "2004-12-20T13:32:05Z")
Still on the Star Trek theme, didn’t Spock refer to Genesis as “ancient earth mythology” in Wrath of Khan? Or am I misremembering it? Still doesn’t prove he had no religion though. Is the Vulans belief system religius or not? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/86 "2004-12-20T14:07:12Z")
In the show Odyssey 5 (which was cancelled ☹ ) one of the leads was an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/87 "2004-12-20T14:44:45Z")
> [@Stryfe](#): > > Still doesn’t prove he had no religion though. Is the Vulans belief system religius or not? Well, according to the book _Spock’s World_, Vulcans have an intimate knowledge of God…they know S/He exists, so there is no controversy of religion. Take that for what it’s worth. Wasn’t Spock coming back from some spiritual retreat when he rejoined the crew in ST:TMP? He hadn’t achieved something or other, so the priestess (?) told him he wasn’t going to find what he was looking for with them. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/88 "2004-12-20T17:17:20Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > In ST:WOK, while they are discussing the implications of the Genesis project, Bones says, “According to myth, the Earth was created in six days. Now look out! Genesis can do it for you in six minutes.” > > It was the “according to myth” part that made me believe that Star Trek humans have developed beyond the belief in a higher power. I don’t think that follows – most mainstream Christians regard the notion that the universe was literally created in six days as myth, even while accepting God as the original prime mover. ---
**Author:** ![fusoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@fusoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fusoya)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/89 "2004-12-20T17:36:50Z")
> [@MrFantsyPants](#): > > I just watched an episode of malcolm in the middle where Reese told some priests something along the lines of “We’re heathens, so take your ghost stories elsewhere” The entire Wilkinson family is atheist. It’s been talked about in a couple of episodes, and after the Shark-baby was born, they decided to join a church for the sole purpose of exploiting the outreach of the congregation to help them raise him. They responded by building an extension to their house for the baby, including a wall with a big Christ mural painted on it, which Hal kept struggling with to paint over, finally deciding to hire a Jewish painter to do the dirty work for him. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/90 "2004-12-20T17:50:04Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Wasn’t Spock coming back from some spiritual retreat when he rejoined the crew in ST:TMP? He hadn’t achieved something or other, so the priestess (?) told him he wasn’t going to find what he was looking for with them. /dons geek hat The _kolinahr_ discipline Spock was pursuing was designed to purge him of his last remaining emotions. He was unable to complete it because of his lingering emotional ties to his human friends in Starfleet. I don’t think there was anything really “religious” (having to do with a supernatural belief system) about it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/91 "2004-12-20T17:58:34Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > I don’t think that follows – most mainstream Christians regard the notion that the universe was literally created in six days as myth, even while accepting God as the original prime mover. I don’t recall any evidence that McCoy goes one way or another. The purpose of his character, representing the id to Kirk’s ego and Spock’s superego, would make me not surprised if he turned out to be a believer. But I don’t know if there is any evidence. Call Genesis a myth, while derogatory, might just come from his biological training. One hopes that the creation/evolution controversy is over with by ST time! ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/92 "2004-12-20T18:31:39Z")
> [@fusoya](#): > > The entire Wilkinson family is atheist. It’s been talked about in a couple of episodes, and after the Shark-baby was born, they decided to join a church for the sole purpose of exploiting the outreach of the congregation to help them raise him. They responded by building an extension to their house for the baby, including a wall with a big Christ mural painted on it, which Hal kept struggling with to paint over, finally deciding to hire a Jewish painter to do the dirty work for him. Wilkinson? They don’t have a last name or a hometown, I thought that was the joke. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416/93 "2004-12-21T02:40:11Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Well, according to the book _Spock’s World_, Vulcans have an intimate knowledge of God…they know S/He exists, so there is no controversy of religion. Take that for what it’s worth. > > Wasn’t Spock coming back from some spiritual retreat when he rejoined the crew in ST:TMP? He hadn’t achieved something or other, so the priestess (?) told him he wasn’t going to find what he was looking for with them. Vulcans having NATURAL psi talent, the elder can look into the disciple’s psyche and realize something’s missing has achieved its goal, in much the same way you can sniff someone and tell he has had the garlic soup for lunch. Heck, these talents stretch all the way to being able to actually store and transfer your equivalent-of-a-soul. But they are still _natural_. The Vulcan “spiritual” practices seem more about meditational disciplines, akin to some forms of Buddhism – in which God is not _necessary_ or even relevant to the discussion of achieving whatever is to be achieved. And in any case, Trek’s vision of Humans (and like I said, apparently only Humans) having “gotten over” all Organized Religion[sup]TM[/sup] doesn’t quite make it on account of Roddenberry’s propensity for taking his personal sociopolitical axes-to-grind and seeing them as the obvious right-and-good way that humanity would evolve. * * * As to Hawkeye Pierce, TV version, he’s canonically “agnostic” to the end but yes, Alda did with time make him act more like a Deist or soft Unitarian. In any case, “I sewed him up, God healed him” can be the statement of someone non-pious, but using “God” as a word for the Universe, or Fate, saying, look, by rights the guy should have died on me and he didn’t. Nothing requires the agnostic/deist/soft atheist to go out of his way to be _hostile_ to religion or not use the cultural idioms thereof (in the movie, the hostility to Frank’s affectation of piety is based on them somehow – and that was a weak spot – seeing right off the bat that he’s a hypocrite). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/openly-atheist-characters-on-tv/280416.md?page=4)