# Opera has so much gorgeous music. But the singers sound like shit. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 7, 2016, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182 "2016-03-07T05:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/41 "2016-03-07T20:27:17Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And I wonder whether Hildegarde Behrens could have done _Piece of My Heart._ 😃 I obtained DVDs of the NY Met Ring, in realistic costume. Brunhilde was a tiny singer, like my little sister dressed up as a Valkyrie for Halloween. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/42 "2016-03-07T20:49:14Z")
Behrens was not a small woman. There were just a lot of very tall people on stage with her (James Morris is 6’5". Behrens was about half a head shorter.) ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/43 "2016-03-07T21:08:24Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > I wouldn’t expect, say, a classically trained pianist to play jazz very well. Wynton Marsalis won Grammys in both categories two years in a row but he is an exception. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I wonder if Janis Joplin could have done Wagner. No, but she didn’t try. Lots of opera singers try to perform different genres but don’t adapt to the style. > [@fachverwirrt](#): > > I have to admit I’m confused by this. Are you saying that most people are unaware that it’s a choral piece? I find that unlikely. I’m only one person, but I didn’t know that. I have heard it performed dozens of times but always instrumental. So it is no surprise to me that the general public might be unaware that it’s a choral piece. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/44 "2016-03-07T21:19:16Z")
Again, I don’t doubt that there are people, even many people, who aren’t aware. I just think “most” is an extravagant claim. It’s a side issue anyway. I’m still mystified as to the relevance. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/45 "2016-03-07T21:22:56Z")
Most of Beethoven’s Ninth is only instrumental. There’s only one… is movement the right word? that has the singing. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/46 "2016-03-07T21:26:54Z")
True (yes, “movement” is the word), but that movement is the only one that has the Ode to Joy theme. I can well believe that most people are not aware of the first three movements. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/47 "2016-03-07T21:35:13Z")
A fair amount of vocal/choral/opera music has crept onto my Ipod in recent years, mostly because I downloaded period/composer collections. I can entirely do without Wagner opera (the vocal parts; the overtures are fine) and the murky stuff the Italians churned out in the 19th century. On the other hand, in limited doses I like “light” opera written by Mozart, Rossini and similar composers (again, overtures mainly, though I went to a complete performance of one of Mozart’s most popular works (The Marriage of Figaro?) and enjoyed it. Baroque opera is also tolerable on brief exposure. What I can’t stand is Baroque-era vocal music in which the female singer is emoting through her nose. I picture Julia Child standing there, turning out proper melodies. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/48 "2016-03-07T21:36:47Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > I think your definition of “operatic lyrics” is misleading at best. Why not just call them lyrics? Otherwise we’re in a world where as soon as an opera singer sings any words, they’ve become operatic lyrics. Operatic lyrics are lyrics written for an opera. Any other usage muddies the language. Because he’s referring to _bel canto_ style, and doesn’t know the word for it. And, likely the most of his audience wouldn’t know either. For a huge portion of the populace, all _bel canto_ singing is considered operatic singing. Heck, I didn’t even know the word until I went to college for music. I can’t begrudge him, either. I knew what he meant. Is there anyone who actually thinks that Beethoven’s Ninth was written for an opera? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/49 "2016-03-07T21:39:54Z")
As long as we’re on this hijack: I did not know this before, but learned it from looking up “Ode To Joy” after this thread piqued my curiosity: [“Beethoven’s tune (but not Schiller’s words) was adopted as the Anthem of Europe by the Council of Europe in 1972, and subsequently the European Union.”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode_to_Joy) This could help to explain why so many people have heard instrumental-only versions. Getting back to the main topic: I do with the OP would come back and elaborate. I’m curious as to exactly what he’s compaining about. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/50 "2016-03-07T21:41:17Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > One of my music professors in college told us that, while many English-speaking operagoers don’t understand the Italian lyrics, it doesn’t matter. He got ready to play a selection from \*Messiah, \* by Handel. He said, “This is in English, and I don’t think you will understand it as well as you think you will!” He was right. Fortunately, the recording was published along with the textbook ( which I kept after the course ended) so I could read Handel’s lyrics, at least. See, I don’t agree with that. I’m not saying it’s necessarily easy if you aren’t used to it, but I think you can understand the lyrics in good opera singing. Well, except by sopranos when they sing so high [that it’s physically impossible to distinguish their vowels cleanly](http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/soprane.html). ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/51 "2016-03-07T21:45:31Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Because he’s referring to _bel canto_ style, and doesn’t know the word for it. And, likely the most of his audience wouldn’t know either. For a huge portion of the populace, all _bel canto_ singing is considered operatic singing. Heck, I didn’t even know the word until I went to college for music. > > I can’t begrudge him, either. I knew what he meant. Is there anyone who actually thinks that Beethoven’s Ninth was written for an opera? I’m not referring to the singing style, I’m referring to the word “lyrics”. Beethoven’s ninth has lyrics. “Operatic” doesn’t add anything. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/52 "2016-03-07T21:48:11Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Beethoven’s ninth has lyrics. Even that’s nitpickable: the words were taken from a poem that was written well before Beethoven had anything to do with them. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/53 "2016-03-07T21:49:04Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > I’m not referring to the singing style, I’m referring to the word “lyrics”. Beethoven’s ninth has lyrics. “Operatic” doesn’t add anything. Yes it does. It refers to a style, though I apparently chose the wrong word. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/54 "2016-03-07T22:12:00Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Even that’s nitpickable: the words were taken from a poem that was written well before Beethoven had anything to do with them. The fact that the fourth movement of Beethoven’s Ninth has lyrics is not nitpickable. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/55 "2016-03-07T22:14:24Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Yes it does. It refers to a style, though I apparently chose the wrong word. The style refers to the singing, not the lyrics. This is what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Evin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@Evin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evin)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/56 "2016-03-07T22:22:50Z")
The jocund Gioachino Rossini once said: “How wonderful opera would be if there were no singers.” But more better: “One can’t judge Wagner’s opera Lohengrin after a first hearing, and I certainly don’t intend to hear it a second time.” ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/57 "2016-03-07T23:09:54Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Even that’s nitpickable: the words were taken from a poem that was written well before Beethoven had anything to do with them. What on earth does the provenance of the text have to do with whether or not there are lyrics in Beethoven’s ninth? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/58 "2016-03-07T23:12:53Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > What on earth does the provenance of the text have to do with whether or not there are lyrics in Beethoven’s ninth? They weren’t originally written _as_ lyrics (i.e. they weren’t meant to be sung). That might be relevant if we’re talking about what _kind_ or “style” of lyrics (“operatic” or whatever) they are. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/59 "2016-03-07T23:18:45Z")
That more or less describes the entire catalog of western art song. If we’re going to insist that Schubert’s entire song collection doesn’t have any lyrics, I think we’ve just weirded language out of existence. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/60 "2016-03-08T03:17:58Z")
Speaking of lyrics . . . One of my favorite genres is operettas, specifically those of Lehar and Kalman. These are usually sung in German or Hungarian, neither of which I speak. I HATE English translations – the balance between consonants and vowels is way off, and is a total distraction. I’m usually only vaguely aware of the plot, so I usually have no idea what’s being sung. \*But it doesn’t matter. \*I listen to the singing, but it’s almost as if the voices are instruments, making beautiful sounds without any linguistic meaning. There have even been times when, upon learning about a particular operetta’s plot, my enjoyment actually diminished. One of the benefits of not understanding the language is that I can edit out the spoken dialog, without losing any of the story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182.md?page=4)