# Opera has so much gorgeous music. But the singers sound like shit. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 7, 2016, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182 "2016-03-07T05:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MacSpon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@MacSpon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacSpon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/101 "2016-03-10T03:17:20Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > One of my music professors in college told us that, while many English-speaking operagoers don’t understand the Italian lyrics, it doesn’t matter. He got ready to play a selection from \*Messiah, \* by Handel. He said, “This is in English, and I don’t think you will understand it as well as you think you will!” He was right. Fortunately, the recording was published along with the textbook ( which I kept after the course ended) so I could read Handel’s lyrics, at least. Nitpick: the lyrics are by Charles Jennens. (And drawn from various biblical sources, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/102 "2016-03-10T04:50:54Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Thanks. > I thought that you would say that I obviously knew nothing of opera, and was prepared to admit it, save that I loved Wagner. > You were rather over the top, there. I argue things forcefully when I have a strong opinion. If that’s over the top, so be it. As **Kimstu** says, this issue is mostly to do with young singers being pushed to do things beyond their capabilities. It’s a problem because it’s potentially damaging . Potentially very damaging. [Here’s](http://www.l2pnet.com/adele-grammys-and-vocal-damage/) an article discussing the issue, particularly about the plethora of young pop singers having vocal surgeries these days (it’s a little inaccurate in that it claims that nodules and polyps are the same thing; they’re not, but they generally have the same root cause). It’s a problem that extends into the opera world, in particular the American opera industry. The most expedient entry into an opera career these days is through the Young Artist Program, which gives opportunities to young singers, generally early to mid-twenties, to sing choruses, small roles, and covers (and allows opera companies to hire choruses, comprimarios and covers without paying union scale). In itself, there’s nothing wrong with that. The problem is that young singers are often then springboarded into a career before they’ve really had a chance to fully develop and settle into their technique. Voices simply don’t really mature and settle until late twenties to early thirties; later for bigger voices. These young singers are now focused on careers instead of training, and never really fully develop their voices. If you take the time to really develop your technique it becomes harder and harder to break into the business. People still want to hear Wagner and Verdi and (later) Puccini, but the voices aren’t there because all the singers started careers too early, and you end up with voices singing roles that are beyond their capabilities. It doesn’t serve the music, but it particularly doesn’t serve the singer. I’m actually sort of fortunate that I didn’t have much of a career in my twenties (at least from a vocal development perspective; it sort of sucks career-wise). It allowed me to take the time to find a teacher who knew what to do with my voice and my body time to fully develop and mature. Now I’m a Heldentenor at an age where I can actually handle it. Ten years ago it would have destroyed me. I have nothing against Jackie Evancho personally. I’m sure she’s a perfectly lovely person. I wish her all the best in whatever style she chooses to sing. But don’t let your kids sing adult opera. ---
**Author:** ![Islander\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@Islander\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Islander_M)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/103 "2016-03-11T03:34:54Z")
Assuming you can, if you try to sing on stage without a mike, and try to out-sing an entire orchestra, you’ll find you’re going to sound a lot like those operatics. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/104 "2016-03-11T06:28:17Z")
> [@MacSpon](#): > > Nitpick: the lyrics are by Charles Jennens. (And drawn from various biblical sources, of course.) What’s your source? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/105 "2016-03-11T13:42:28Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > What’s your source? Here’s [a Wikipedia source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_(Handel)) (first sentence). And a [non-Wikipedia one](http://messiah-guide.com/history.html). Note that Jennens just compiled the text; he didn’t write them. They still came directly from the King James Bible. But the choice and ordering of texts was Jennens’s, not Handel’s. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/106 "2016-03-11T14:12:56Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > But don’t let your kids sing adult opera. An important distinction. A vast array of soprano parts the were written to be sung by (male) children. Personally, I don’t care who the part was written for, if the singer can sing it in a safe way. It’s not as if there isn’t a valid young opera sound. The Vienna Boys’ Choir is s very talented group. If you sing like them, it is good. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/107 "2016-03-11T14:27:46Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > An important distinction. A vast array of soprano parts the were written to be sung by (male) children. > > Personally, I don’t care who the part was written for, if the singer can sing it in a safe way. It’s not as if there isn’t a valid young opera sound. The Vienna Boys’ Choir is s very talented group. If you sing like them, it is good. Sure. And honestly if these little kids were singing “O mio babbino caro” like little kids, I wouldn’t have much to say about it. It’s imitating the adult sound that starts getting dangerous. I stand firm on kids singing “Nessun dorma” though. That’s just disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/108 "2016-03-11T16:09:08Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Here’s [a Wikipedia source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_(Handel)) (first sentence). And a [non-Wikipedia one](http://messiah-guide.com/history.html). Note that Jennens just compiled the text; he didn’t write them. They still came directly from the King James Bible. But the choice and ordering of texts was Jennens’s, not Handel’s. Oh. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/109 "2016-03-11T16:40:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Are there any vocalists that perform opera in a more pop style voice, with contemporary instrumentation? There was that time at the Grammys when Placido Domingo called in sick, so Aretha Franklin stepped up in his place, to sing “Nessun Dorma”. She has the voice to do it, but it just sounded…weird. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/110 "2016-03-12T18:25:48Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > As **Kimstu** says, this issue is mostly to do with young singers being pushed to do things beyond their capabilities. It’s a problem because it’s potentially damaging . Potentially very damaging. As someone who loves to sing but probably has vocal nodules (from screaming, not from singing), it really does suck. And mine are small: just enough that I can’t really use my head voice. It bums me out, as I was just finally getting into my head voice. But then I went through that medicine withdrawal that left me screaming at the top of my lungs too often. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/111 "2016-03-13T15:37:10Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > An important distinction. A vast array of soprano parts the were written to be sung by (male) children. Soprano **choral** parts, yes. Not soprano (or mezzosoprano) arias from opera. [QUOTE=BigT] Personally, I don’t care who the part was written for, if the singer can sing it in a safe way. It’s not as if there isn’t a valid young opera sound. The Vienna Boys’ Choir is s very talented group. If you sing like them, it is good. [/QUOTE] The VBC are indeed very talented, but they’re not singing opera arias meant for soloists. They’re singing primarily church music composed, as you noted, specifically for the voices of prepubescent boys, and they’re singing primarily in choral pieces where an individual voice isn’t carrying the weight of all the expression and technique by itself. Men singing women’s solos in opera have typically been highly trained adults, either countertenors/falsettists or (in earlier eras) castrati. Adult opera roles are not written for children to sing, and when children try to sing them as an adult would it’s not good for either the music or the children. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/112 "2016-03-14T02:38:54Z")
There are opera parts written specifically for children though. Not a lot, but they’re out there. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/113 "2016-03-14T08:53:50Z")
I’m still none the wiser as to what, about operatic/lieder singing voices, the OP considers “shit” and what would be “non-shit”. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/114 "2016-03-14T08:58:28Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > That depends on the language. > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Oh, really? In WHAT language does a singer draw out consonants? In one in which the letetr r does not always represent a consonant, and in which writing an e as multiple e’s tends to lead people to think you mean a different phoneme rather than the same but longer. Oh hi, English! In Spanish that would have been “fuuuuUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuui al conservatoooOOOooooOOOOOOoooriiiIIIIIIIIIiiiiooooOOOOOOO y tú nooooOOOOOooooooo…” Patricia Kraus never worked as an opera singer but was trained as one; I can’t go searching for them now (at work) but there are songs she up-and-downs into irrecognizability (I think the English verb would be “thrills”). ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/115 "2016-03-14T14:36:30Z")
From one of Tom Lehrer’s songs: “We must protest this treatment, Hubert,” says each newspaper reader; As someone once remarked to Schubert, “Ta-ake us to your Lieder!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/116 "2016-03-14T14:42:37Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Patricia Kraus never worked as an opera singer but was trained as one; I can’t go searching for them now (at work) but there are songs she up-and-downs into irrecognizability (I think the English verb would be “thrills”). “Trills”, I think, although I bet she’s pretty thrilling too! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/117 "2016-03-14T15:15:40Z")
Dunnow, not my type but I appreciate the correction. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/118 "2016-03-14T18:32:03Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Patricia Kraus never worked as an opera singer but was trained as one; I can’t go searching for them now (at work) but there are songs she up-and-downs into irrecognizability (I think the English verb would be “thrills”). I’ll be curious to hear what you’re hearing, but if I’m understanding what you’re talking about, that sounds more R&B-ish than operatic. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/119 "2016-03-14T18:45:33Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > I’ll be curious to hear what you’re hearing, but if I’m understanding what you’re talking about, that sounds more R&B-ish than operatic. It sounds like [melisma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melisma), which is a plague that infected American Idol. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182/120 "2016-03-14T18:51:04Z")
I’m assuming that’s what she’s talking about, but I’d still like to hear it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opera-has-so-much-gorgeous-music-but-the-singers-sound-like-shit/748182.md?page=7)