# Operas and Musical Plays **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 13, 2001, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operas-and-musical-plays/65326 "2001-05-13T17:11:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operas-and-musical-plays/65326/1 "2001-05-13T17:11:28Z")
Okay call me _nekulturny_, but what’s the difference? An opera seems to be a story presented on a stage with a cast that sings, whereas a musical play seems to be a story presented on a stage with a cast that sings. They seem the same. An opera, as most people think of them, uses classical music. But what is classical music? At one time it wasn’t “classical”; it was current. Themes are often about the Old Gods or are classical love stories. Again, classical love stories were once new and fresh. In other words, operas used current themes and current music to entertain people. Modern musical plays use current themes and current music to entertain people. It seems to me that musical plays are operas, but are not called operas because the masses wouldn’t attend them if they equated _Cats_ to _Tristan und Isolde_. So are operas a subset of musical plays that consist of classical music and themes? Or are all musical plays operas? ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operas-and-musical-plays/65326/2 "2001-05-13T19:46:40Z")
From an [interview with Michael John LaChiusa](http://www.talkinbroadway.com/cabaret/lachiusa.html): > [@](#): > > **JF** : Is there a difference in terms of style when you write an opera versus a musical? I know you mentioned in an article you wrote for the New York Times last year that you didn’t believe there should be a difference in the two forms … > > **MJL** : There really isn’t. Personally, I don’t put a connotation onto the form when I dive into a piece; I just write what it is that I want to write. If it happens to be through sung it’s because I’ve chosen it to be, not because I’ve decided that it is going to be an opera. I think that there is always room for experimentation in all the art forms, no matter what you call them; call it a musical, or musical theater or an opera … I think it’s all very much the same thing. There are various vocal techniques and traditions which are attached and used for each of the forms, and the milieus in which these pieces are performed helps determine whether a show is considered to be an opera or musical. In other words, if it were in an opera house, people would have the tendency to say “Oh, that’s an opera,” no matter what the show may be. > > **JF** : There really doesn’t seem to be a hard and fast dividing line between musicals and opera. If you look at Carmen, for instance, it’s almost a ‘musical’ in terms of the amount of dialogue in it. And so much of Sondheim’s later musicals are performed in opera houses across the world. > > **MJL** : I think people can be very territorial about opera and musical theatre and what they want from the respective genres. A lot of music theater people want their musicals to be in the standard form of Damn Yankees or a Rodgers and Hammerstein type musical. But if you really think about it, the Rodgers and Hammerstein shows were extremely risky and daring and are as close to being American operas as you got in that period. Today they are seen as being a traditional form, but when they were written they were rather radical, while appealing to a mass audience at the same time. [Here](http://www.newyorkmag.com/page.cfm?page_id=3179)’s an article from _New York Magazine_ that seems to touch on a similar thought, i.e., that the disinction may be blurring. And finally from the Seattle Opera’s webpage, [What is Opera?](http://www.seattleopera.org/speight/whatis.shtml) > [@](#): > > …the best definition may well be that an opera is an opera if its composer called it an opera. So I suppose that while some folks may have strong feelings about what’s what, the actual distinction is no clearer than where the fence line lies between rhythm and blues and rock’n’roll. Of course we’ve yet to hear what others have to say. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operas-and-musical-plays/65326/3 "2001-05-13T21:38:13Z")
From Encyclopedia Britannica: > [@](#): > > [musical](http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=55797&tocid=0) > also called musical comedy theatrical production that is characteristically sentimental and amusing in nature, with a simple but distinctive plot, and offering music, dancing, and dialogue. > > [opera](http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=58618&tocid=0) > a drama set to music and made up of vocal pieces with orchestral accompaniment and orchestral overtures and interludes. In some operas, such as those of Richard Wagner, the music is continuous throughout an act; in others, it is broken up either by recitative (which is more like sung speech) or by dialogue. > > [operetta](http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=58625&tocid=0) > musical-dramatic production similar in structure to an opera but characteristically having a romantically sentimental plot interspersed with songs, orchestral music, and rather elaborate dancing scenes, along with the spoken dialogue. In my mind, musical and operetta are pretty much the same, except that a musical would be an operetta written in the 20th century in a modern musical style. An opera would be different because it would include little or no dancing. Taking the examples from Encyclopedia Britannica: Gilbert and Sullivan, Offenbach: operetta George M. Cohan, Gershwin, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Sondheim: musical ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operas-and-musical-plays/65326/4 "2001-05-13T22:11:10Z")
From the above definition, _Porgy and Bess_ would be an operatta, but it is ususally regarding as an American folk opera. It is very sentimental, has love themes, but also has more sinister actions. Johnny’s definition re opera being classical music is true for a classical opera (by defintion), but of course not true for a folk opera. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operas-and-musical-plays/65326/5 "2001-05-13T22:36:19Z")
The definition I’ve always heard is that in an opera, all of the lines are sung, wheras in a musical play, there can be both singing and speaking. By this definition, _Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat_, for instance, would be an opera, but _Man of la Mancha_ would not be. I’ve also heard the term “operetta” used for a singing-only performance such as _Joseph_ which is shorter than a “traditional” opera, which might go for three or four hours. ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operas-and-musical-plays/65326/6 "2001-05-13T23:40:08Z")
I don’t see an appreciable difference in the Britannica definitions of operetta and musical comedy – for that matter, a G&S operetta isn’t all _that_ different from your average (Rodgers and Hammerstein-type) Broadway musical, except for the style of the music. (I’ve heard _H.M.S. Pinafore_ referred to as perhaps the first modern musical.) I’ve also heard the “rule” that operas are sung-through, but this isn’t always the case – _The Magic Flute,_ for instance, has lots of spoken dialogue. (Which is kind of a pain in the ass when you’re listening to a recording and don’t speak any German… ;)) Finally, the point about milieu in the LaChiusa interview is a really good one. (Hmmmm…does _Rent_ count as an opera or a musical? After all, it’s a reworking of an opera. What about _Miss Saigon_?) ---
**Author:** ![screech-owl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@screech-owl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/screech-owl)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operas-and-musical-plays/65326/7 "2001-05-14T00:40:10Z")
[Still wondering myself](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=54015) ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operas-and-musical-plays/65326/8 "2001-05-15T02:10:58Z")
Have you ever wondered why there aren’t any really good American classical operas? My take on this is that the English language does not render itself to such beautiful tones as Italian, which has a lot of vowel endings to words, upon which a mezzosoprano diva can really belt out. I like Porgy and Bess, and it can be argued that that is not opera, but I think, as many others, that it can be labled a folk opera. But it sounds good inspite of the fact that it is in English, because it really isn’t in English, but a Negro patois that has more open sounds than English. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operas-and-musical-plays/65326/9 "2001-05-15T04:23:44Z")
There are English-language classical operas, though, even if there’s not an abundance of American ones. Handel’s _Messiah_ comes to mind, for instance. And if you ask me, _Porgy and Bess_ is an opera, whatever the heck language it’s in. ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operas-and-musical-plays/65326/10 "2001-05-15T06:01:57Z")
_Messiah_ isn’t really an opera, though – it’s an oratorio. Oratorio is basically a dramatic form (often with religious subject material) but the action isn’t staged, and the soloists don’t always play particular characters – they don’t in _Messiah._ ---
**Author:** ![rivulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operas-and-musical-plays/65326/11 "2001-05-15T06:34:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by barbitu8 \* > Have you ever wondered why there aren’t any really good American classical operas? My take on this is that the English language does not render itself to such beautiful tones as Italian, which has a lot of vowel endings to words, upon which a mezzosoprano diva can really belt out. English is every bit as singable as, say, German which also has plenty of consonants for a singer to deal with, and there are quite a few great German operas. In fact, there are some very good American and English operas. Britten, Menotti, Barber, Argento, Floyd, Moore, Thomson, Ward. There are many historical reasons why they aren’t better known, but they have beautiful music and are dramatically engaging. True, they don’t generally have those Italianate melodies/ vocal lines. Composers of English language opera have generally made an effort to be faithful to the rhythms and nuances of English, which produces melodies with a different feel to them – and perhaps not in keeping with the traditional idea of what an operatic melody should sound like. Back to the OP: It’s very hard to define opera vs musicals, as others have shown. You can always come up with a bunch of works that defy categorization. However, as a classical singer, I do notice a distinct difference in the vocal style required. Operatic repertoire tends to be more virtuostic and lie in a different tessitura than musical theater music. The best test for me is if I sing something and my voice sounds too “cultured” and too overpowering for the music then it’s not opera. (For me rock opera just doesn’t exist. :D) I doubt if a musicologist would put much stock in my rather simplistic definition based on vocal style (especially when it comes to early opera), but it certainly helps when trying to choose roles to sing. Operetta lies somewhere between opera and musicals, but it tends to favor a classical style of singing too. rivulus p.s. FWIW, an operatic diva wouldn’t be caught dead belting. 😉 And _The Messiah_ is oratorio, not opera.