# Operation Mockingbird **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2014, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725 "2014-10-28T08:37:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/41 "2014-10-31T11:29:15Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Would you be kind enough to share with the rest of us the corner of the world which is immune to “strong propaganda” of one type or another? What makes your ‘right minded’ thinking less ‘brain damaged’ than say, ours? > [@Simple\_Mind](#): > > Thank you for asking me that question, I am aware that everyone that reads news article on a daily basis is exposed to propaganda of one kind or another. “that question”? There were two questions there, why didn’t you answer the first one. I’m in Norway by the way, well outside CIA influence, and while I’ll agree that there is some bias in public opinion, politics and the press against Putin, the views you’ve expressed support for this far in the thread are way further away from a hypothetical wholly fact based position. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/42 "2014-10-31T16:58:36Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, I’m at a loss. I didn’t believe that there could be anyone who would approve of the naked power- and land-grab being tried by Russia nowadays, which seems so very naked in its aggression and echoes so terribly of the big ugly totalitarian regimes of the past. > > But now, I find there actually are people who approve. I don’t really get it. How is this admirable, while Prague in 1968 was despicable? What’s the real difference? > > (Is aggression really any better if it wears clothing?) It’s funny that you assume that your interlocutors would be against against Prague in 1968? As I recall, not everyone in the world sided with America in the Cold War. For the record, I don’t support the Soviet intervention in Czechoslovakia (though I’d note that it involved less bloodshed, and was less morally revolting, than the US invasion of the Dominican Republic three years earlier). That said, the big difference between then and now is that the people in the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics _don’t want to be part of_ the Ukraine. Dubcek was pretty widely beloved of people all across Czechoslovakia, and was a genuinely popular and charismatic leader. Poroshenko is…not. The Ukraine is, whatever your feelings about the present conflict, unquestionably a deeply divided ‘country’. Not just ethnically (as **Ibn Warraq** implies- I’m perpetually amused by the tendency of some people in the West to reduce conflicts in Africa, the former Soviet Union, and elsewhere to matters of ethnicity and tribalism. The divide is partly about ethnicity, but it’s also about economics, ideology, the way people think about history, and fundamental world views. This seems very far from a land-grab, since as yet there’s no indication that the LNR and DNR are going to be annexed by Russia, or even that the Russian Government has any concrete plans to annex them. My hope is that the DNR and LNR can be independent of _both_ Russia _and_ the Ukriane, and are able to set up an economically socialist, antiliberal, Orthodox Christian state in peace. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/43 "2014-10-31T17:00:46Z")
> [@Simple\_Mind](#): > > Thank you for your various responses, who can guarantee me that some of you are not paid by the CIA to debuke and discredit posts by me and others like me? > Nobody is safe anymore from being misinterpreted or smeared by the ones in charge. > > Regarding military bases, that this countries want to have the Americans on their soil is a story that is only true for US citizens that don’t know better, for example Japan and Germany were not allowed to have their own military forces develop as big as it would be nessecary for them to be independent. > > I see it rather the way it was when the British sailed up the river and confronted the Chinese with the fact that they better surrender to the Royal Navy or face the consequences, the same story happened again when the American Navy came to Japan and the Philippines, there are more examples that you can look up yourself. > > Most other countries were lured by “false” promises of aid and credits that are now strangling them, but nevermind that, important was for the USA and it’s alies to get a foot in the door. > > Anyway I am only here to see that nothing short of a new war will convince the US-American citizens of the fact that they were supporting the bad guys, the “very near” future will show who was right or wrong and not me or you are going to be able to do anything about that. > > Peace I seem to recall that America has a base in Cuba, and that the Cuban regime since 1959 has been fairly open about the fact that they don’t much like it. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/44 "2014-10-31T17:03:36Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But…isn’t that pretty much the entire civilized world outside of Russia? > > Somewhat more seriously, who is angry about it in such a way as to inspire someone else to react against them, and thus in favor of Putin? > > I’m a liberal…and I’m opposed to Russian aggression and expansion. But so are all of my conservative friends and acquaintances. What specific ideological group is in favor? I would have thought it would be about as rare as people being in favor of Russia keeping the Sakhalin Islands. > > I comprehend differences of opinion on whether Turkey should give back northern Cyprus. I get where both sides are coming from. But Russia in Crimea and eastern Ukraine? Who actually wants this? > > Well…having to pass a test is, fortunately, not required here – the SDMB would be a much quieter place! – and I want to defend the right of people to hold opinions without having to justify them. There is still a place for faith, even in politics. You do realize that the global spectrum of political opinion is not limited to ‘liberals’ and ‘conservatives’, and that the opinions of people that you know are not necessarily a representative sample of the opinions of seven billion people in the world? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/45 "2014-10-31T17:08:15Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > This seems very far from a land-grab, since as yet there’s no indication that the LNR and DNR are going to be annexed by Russia, or even that the Russian Government has any concrete plans to annex them. _cough_Crimea_cough_ > [@](#): > > My hope is that the DNR and LNR can be independent of _both_ Russia _and_ the Ukriane, and are able to set up an economically socialist, antiliberal, Orthodox Christian state in peace. Antiliberal? What would that look like, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/46 "2014-10-31T19:39:48Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Antiliberal? What would that look like, exactly? Remarkably similar to Putin’s ideal Greater Russian Republic would be my guess. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/47 "2014-10-31T19:48:21Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > You do realize that the global spectrum of political opinion is not limited to ‘liberals’ and ‘conservatives’, and that the opinions of people that you know are not necessarily a representative sample of the opinions of seven billion people in the world? That’s why I asked who the hell is in favor. It doesn’t fit into any of the groups that I’ve ever known of. I don’t claim to know everything. If you know anything, maybe you could answer the questions flying around in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/48 "2014-10-31T19:57:54Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Antiliberal? What would that look like, exactly? Not gay, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/49 "2014-10-31T20:38:53Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > _cough_Crimea_cough_ > > Antiliberal? What would that look like, exactly? Crimea _barely_ voted to leave Russia in 1991 (at a time when fissiparous sentiment was at its peak, and a lot of Russians probably boycotted the vote anyway). And they voted overwhelmingly to join Russia this year. I’m not particularly an advocate of Russia joining Crimea- and if I lived in Donetsk I’d be strongly for independence, not for being ruled either by Russia or the Ukes- but you can’t deny that Russia had at least a plausible case here. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/50 "2014-10-31T20:42:30Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > . Much like Chavez could muster international support for the same reasons. It’s mainly from the disenfranchised, disillusioned and unwashed lower classes though, so feel free to ignore it. Yep. I love how the international chattering classes were entirely blindsided by the way Chavez (how do I put accent marks in this format?) won the recall referendum in '04 and the reelection in '06 by landslides. After all, like Pauline Kael, everyone in the circles they talked to in Caracas favoured the opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/51 "2014-10-31T20:44:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Remarkably similar to Putin’s ideal Greater Russian Republic would be my guess. The economic policy of the DNR and LNR is, as far as we can tell, going to be some sort of neo-communism or neo-socialism, which couldn’t be more different than Putin’s domestic economic policies. The leadership of the DNR and LNR clearly like Russian sponsorship and identify culturally with Russia, but it’s far from clear they want to copy Putin’s Russia in everything. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@Simple\_Mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Mind)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/52 "2014-11-01T10:57:54Z")
It’s interesting to see that US-Americans like to differentiate between their two political parties, that is really totally irrelevant, the interests are of course based on a ruling elite and they don’t care who has the mayority. Forget about your learned and studied knowlege and find out who does benefit from actions or inactions and you will see through the smokescreens. Here is another article: [http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40109.htm](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40109.htm) From that article: "Unbeknownst to most Americans the United States is presently under thirty presidential declared states of emergency. They confer vast powers on the Executive Branch including the ability to financially incapacitate any person or organization in the United States, seize control of the nation’s communications infrastructure, mobilize military forces, expand the permissible size of the military without congressional authorization, and extend tours of duty without consent from service personnel. Declared states of emergency may also activate Presidential Emergency Action Documents and other continuity-of-government procedures which confer powers on the President, such as the unilateral suspension of habeas corpus—that appear fundamentally opposed to the American constitutional order. Although the National Emergencies Act, by its plain language, requires the Congress to vote every six months on whether a declared national emergency should continue, Congress has done only once in the nearly forty year history of the Act. — Patrick Thronson, Michigan Journal of Law (2013, Vol 46)." Tell me why the US-Government has this kind of power? Or from further down in the article: "William Binney, former NSA employee and whistleblower, stated that the NSA had gone “totalitarian”. In an interview with DW he likened the NSA and the US government to the Third Reich. ``` Binney: “Sure, they haven’t gone that far yet [as the Nazis and East German Stassi], but they tried to shut down newspaper reporters like Jim Risen…Look at the NDAA Section 1021, that gave President Obama the ability to define someone as a terrorist threat and have the military incarcerate them indefinitely without due process. That’s the same as the special order 48 issued in 1933 by the Nazis, [the so-called Reichstag Fire Decree]. Read that – it says exactly the same thing. These were totalitarian processes that were instituted…Totalitarianism comes in the form first of knowledge of people and what they’re doing, and then it starts to transition into using that power against people. That’s what’s happening – in terms of newspaper reporters, in terms of crimes. That’s a direct violation of our constitution. DW: But surely the difference is that there was an ideological regime behind the Stasi and the Nazis. Binney: You mean like putting people like John Kiriakou in prison for exposing torture and giving the torturers immunity? That’s what our country’s coming to. That’s what we did. That’s disgraceful. The motives of totalitarian states are not exactly the same every time, but they’re very similar: power, control and money…We’re focusing now on everyone on the planet – that’s a change from focusing on organizations that were attempting to do nasty things. When you focus on everybody, you’re moving down that path towards population control.” ``` I am sure you will tell me that one can not trust the words of a “wistleblower”, but why not? Have anyone of you watched the movie, [The Pentagon Papers (film) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Papers_%28film%29) The movie is based on the historical facts of the conspiracy by the USA of manipulating and destabilizing several Asian Countries. > **[Pentagon Papers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers)** > > The Pentagon Papers, officially titled Report of the Office of the Secretary of Defense Vietnam Task Force, is a United States Department of Defense history of the United States' political and military involvement in Vietnam from 1945 to 1967. Released by Daniel Ellsberg, who had worked on the study, they were first brought to the attention of the public on the front page of The New York Times in 1971. A 1996 article in The New York Times said that the Pentagon Papers had demonstrated, amon The... From Wiki: The Pentagon Papers, officially titled United States – Vietnam Relations, 1945–1967: A Study Prepared by the Department of Defense, is a United States Department of Defense history of the United States’ political-military involvement in Vietnam from 1945 to 1967. The papers were discovered and released by Daniel Ellsberg, and first brought to the attention of the public on the front page of The New York Times in 1971.[1] A 1996 article in The New York Times said that the Pentagon Papers had demonstrated, among other things, that the Johnson Administration “systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress.” Peace ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/53 "2014-11-01T13:26:44Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The economic policy of the DNR and LNR is, as far as we can tell, going to be some sort of neo-communism or neo-socialism, which couldn’t be more different than Putin’s domestic economic policies. > > The leadership of the DNR and LNR clearly like Russian sponsorship and identify culturally with Russia, but it’s far from clear they want to copy Putin’s Russia in everything. Look, this ship has sailed in 1989. Stop trying to make communism happen. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/54 "2014-11-01T13:34:00Z")
> [@Simple\_Mind](#): > > It’s interesting to see that US-Americans like to differentiate between their two political parties, that is really totally irrelevant, the interests are of course based on a ruling elite and they don’t care who has the mayority. > > Forget about your learned and studied knowlege and find out who does benefit from actions or inactions and you will see through the smokescreens… No, what are _you_ talking about?? Listen, if you debate ‘style’ is to ignore the questions others ask you and post walls of irrelevant text then I don’t see much point in having this conversation. If you want to regurgitate feverish hysterics about the Great American Satan then create your own blog and copy and paste whatever glurge you want there and hope that like minded ‘free-thinkers’ such as yourself will gather and echo chamber your views. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725/55 "2014-11-01T14:31:54Z")
I gotta admit, Simple Mind, without a real attempt at engaging other debaters I’m thinking this belongs on your personal blog and not here in Great Debates. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-mockingbird/702725.md?page=2)