# Operation Northwoods **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2007, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-northwoods/418465 "2007-09-08T15:32:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-northwoods/418465/21 "2007-09-10T22:17:45Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] > **[Criminal conspiracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(crime))** [/QUOTE] I don’t get why you posted that link. So is it a crime for our government to propose a plan that would involve the killing of civilians in other countries? As far as I know, Northwood didn’t call for any killing of US citizens/residents. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-northwoods/418465/22 "2007-09-10T23:36:06Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC] I don’t get why you posted that link. So is it a crime for our government to propose a plan that would involve the killing of civilians in other countries? As far as I know, Northwood didn’t call for any killing of US citizens/residents. [/QUOTE] It was at least conspiracy to commit fraud. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-northwoods/418465/23 "2007-09-10T23:44:07Z")
. Could be. IANAL, my only strength is business law. But Conspiracy requires an agreement to commit a crime. Evidence of planning can be used as evidence of conspiracy, but to my understanding is not sufficient. 'Course, I guess you’d also have to argue that any military contingency plans including illegal activities, no matter how far-fetched or abstract–invading Canada, say, or plans for the implementation of martial law in case it’s ever declared–would also be illegal? . ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-northwoods/418465/24 "2007-09-10T23:53:35Z")
[QUOTE=andros] . Could be. IANAL, my only strength is business law. But Conspiracy requires an agreement to commit a crime. Evidence of planning can be used as evidence of conspiracy, but to my understanding is not sufficient. 'Course, I guess you’d also have to argue that any military contingency plans including illegal activities, no matter how far-fetched or abstract–invading Canada, say, or plans for the implementation of martial law in case it’s ever declared–would also be illegal? . [/QUOTE] The troubling part was not a planned invasion of Cuba. That would be OK I guess. The entire purpose of this was to subvert the American people. It was a plan to commit fraud. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-northwoods/418465/25 "2007-09-11T02:04:16Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] It was at least conspiracy to commit fraud. [/QUOTE] You were the one who posted legal definitions before - can you find a definition of “fraud” that would include Operation Northwood? What I’ve seen is that fraud, the crime, is deception for personal gain. I can’t see how deception to keep the commies at bay could in any way be considered as personal gain. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-northwoods/418465/26 "2007-09-11T02:45:38Z")
“Blowing up a U.S. ship in Guantánamo Bay and blaming it on Cuba—reminiscent of the destruction of the USS Maine at Havana in 1898, which helped to precipitate the Spanish-American War. (The document’s first suggestion regarding the sinking of a U.S. ship is to blow up a ship at sea and hence would result in U.S. Navy members being killed…” “We could sink a boatload of Cubans enroute [sic] to Florida (real or simulated). We could foster attempts on lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to the extent of wounding in instances to be widely publicized. Exploding a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots, the arrest of Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents substantiating Cuban involvement, also\*\* would be helpful in projecting the idea of an irresponsible government\*\*.” > **[Operation Northwoods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods)** > > Operation Northwoods was a proposed false flag operation that originated within the US Department of Defense of the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for CIA operatives to both stage and commit acts of terrorism against American military and civilian targets, blaming them on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba. The possibilities detailed in the document included the remote control of civilian aircraft which would be secretly repainted as US Air Fo... The conspiracy included a plan to kill US Navy personal. I also like the boled part. This is one of the most irresponsible plans I ever saw and part of it’s stated plan was to make someone else look irresponsible. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-northwoods/418465/27 "2007-09-11T03:08:41Z")
> [@](#): > > As far as I know, Northwood didn’t call for any killing of US citizens/residents. The possibility of staging “Cuban” terrorist attacks in Miami and Washington was discussed. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-northwoods/418465/28 "2007-09-11T03:11:03Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] “Blowing up a U.S. ship in Guantánamo Bay and blaming it on Cuba—reminiscent of the destruction of the USS Maine at Havana in 1898, which helped to precipitate the Spanish-American War. (The document’s first suggestion regarding the sinking of a U.S. ship is to blow up a ship at sea **and hence would result in U.S. Navy members being killed…** ” [/QUOTE] (The bolding is mine) That’s what the Wikipedia article says, but that’s not what the actual document says. It says “We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba.” Since the rest of the document spells out how to avoid any US casualties, I have to assume that the ship blown up in Guantanamo Bay would be unmanned. There isn’t a mention of blowing up a “ship at sea,” unless you’re referring to blowing up a ship in Cuban waters near Havana or Santiago, and those are explicitly described as “unmanned,” with plans to “‘evacuate’ remaining members of the non-existent crew.” Please don’t get the impression that I’m supporting or defending the plan, but I think it’s been overblown, and I’m contesting your assertion that criminal prosecution could have been conducted. The plan obviously reads like the product of a brainstorming session, with explicit instructions to the reader that all the suggestions should be considered as preliminary, and other agencies would also submit their ideas as a basis for someone else developing a plan. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-northwoods/418465/29 "2007-09-11T04:28:38Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC] (The bolding is mine) That’s what the Wikipedia article says, but that’s not what the actual document says. It says “We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba.” Since the rest of the document spells out how to avoid any US casualties, I have to assume that the ship blown up in Guantanamo Bay would be unmanned. There isn’t a mention of blowing up a “ship at sea,” unless you’re referring to blowing up a ship in Cuban waters near Havana or Santiago, and those are explicitly described as “unmanned,” with plans to “‘evacuate’ remaining members of the non-existent crew.” Please don’t get the impression that I’m supporting or defending the plan, but I think it’s been overblown, and I’m contesting your assertion that criminal prosecution could have been conducted. The plan obviously reads like the product of a brainstorming session, with explicit instructions to the reader that all the suggestions should be considered as preliminary, and other agencies would also submit their ideas as a basis for someone else developing a plan. [/QUOTE] You’re right. I found the actual document and read it. It only mentions killing a boat load of Cuban refugees. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/operation-northwoods/418465.md?page=1)